WEBVTT - This file was automatically generated by VIMEO. Please email info@talestoolkit.com to report problems. So we've got loads of people here tonight, which is great and I'm really excited about the webinar tonight. Um, 'cause Kathy Brody, we've been a big fan for a long time actually. Um, and she's gonna be talking about sustain shared thinking and outdoors. Um, and when we develop the Tells toolkit training, a lot of our work as anyone who's a member already knows is around quality interactions in the early years and how we develop that through story and talk and creativity. And um, we read Kathy Brody's book about sustain shared thinking and loved a lot of the work. So there was a lot of your influences, Kathy, that went into developing tell's toolkit right at the start. So it's great. Um, so just a little bit about Kathy before we get going. Um, so Kathy's got loads of brilliant books, so the sustain shared thinking one that I was chatting about, um, but lots of other books as well. So definitely check out the books that she's got and we'll put some links afterwards. We'll send an email out. Um, but also she runs something called the Early Years Summit and she'll talk a little bit more about that, but it's lots of chats with brilliant early years experts that you can access for free and then there's recordings afterwards. Um, so Kathy will tell you a little bit more about that. Um, so I'm gonna hand over now and go off and just let Kathy chat and if you've got any questions and feel free to type away all the way through. Um, and I'll make a note of your questions and then we'll bring them back for Kathy at the end. So over to you Kathy. Lovely, thank you very much indeed, Kate. That's super stuff. Uh, yes, if we could, I'll um, go to questions at the very end because once I get going on the slide, I find that I get on a bit of a roll, so, um, that's good. However, if there is something that's really obviously silly and that I've missed out, do give me a shout. Keep Me, right? Yeah, yeah, will do. So this evening we're gonna be looking at sustained shared thinking, um, and being outdoors in particular about sustained shared thinking. Um, I'm absolutely thrilled to be doing this with Health's toolkit. So thank you very much indeed, Kate, for that. The three main aims for this evening are to look at what is sustained shared thinking. Just think about an actual definition and also, um, what that looks like in practice. What is it that we're, we're talking about to practitioners, what does that look like? Uh, I'm going to touch on the benefits both to the children and to the practitioners and, um, go through some of those with you and give some examples as well. And then finally, I'm going to move on to why being outdoors and sustaining shared thinking is such a special place to be with children and some of the special things that might bring to being with outdoors. Um, and obviously that links quite closely with, uh, the summit as well. So first aim, let's have a look at what is sustained shared thinking. I'm going to start with the actual definition, um, of the phrase because sustained shared thinking as a phrase has a specific definition and it comes from two pieces of research. Um, the effect researching effective pedagogy in the early years, the repi and also as most people will know it from the epi, the effective provision of preschool education, um, which is a huge piece of research. That piece of research is, um, getting on for, um, oh gosh, 15 years old now. Um, but it was huge at the time and it had lots and lots of implications. They looked at almost 3000 children, um, across all sorts of settings. So child minders, preschools, nurseries, all sorts of settings. And what they did was look to see where, where children thrived the most, what was good practice, what made a real difference to children's learning and development. And of course from that they found lots of different things that were really good practice. And one of those was sustained shared thinking. In the epi research, they define that as an episode in which two or more individuals work together in an intellectual way to solve a problem, clarify a concept, evaluate activities, extend a narrative, et cetera. And that et cetera is actually in the definition, and I'll come back to that. Both parties must contribute to the thinking and it must develop and extend. So let's just unpack that a little bit. First, an episode in which two and more individuals work together in an intellectual way to solve a problem. So this is more than just talking together or having a communication or just having, um, an on the side conversation. This is something that you are really thinking about, something that you are working together on. And it is a two-way communication, a two-way exchange. And that might be to solve a problem. And the problem is something, it can be as simple as how do we put the bikes back in the shed? How do you get this jigsaw back together without it falling apart? Um, it can be as simple as that or it might be a problem as in a conflict. How are you going to solve a problem between two children because, um, they're arguing over a toy. So a problem, think about problem in its widest sense. Um, clarify a concept. A concept might be something like, for example, ice cubes in the water tray. Where what happens to the ice cubes? Where do they go to when they melt? Do you have more water in the the tray once they've melted or is it the same amount of water? Why haven't those ice cubes melted outside because it's really cold outside at the minute? Those kinds of concepts are the sorts of things that we can be talking to children about and asking what their ideas are as well. Why do they think the ice cubes haven't melted outside, but indoors they have melted. Um, evaluate activities. And here activities don't just mean what you've set up on the table, it's not just, um, the painting or the gluing or the sticking that you've set out. Activities can be things like, um, lining up to go outside it. It might be, um, how you get your coats on so you can evaluate that. So there's an amount of self-reflection and children's self-reflection in there as well. And the most obvious thing, I think when most people think about sustained shared thinking, it's extending that narrative and that narrative being a two-way, verbal communication, um, talking to children, talking with children, listening and actually doing positive questioning as well. For me, a lot of the critical part is that both parties must contribute to thinking and it must extend and develop. So we are not talking about adults just imparting knowledge to children. This is a pencil, it's a red pencil, it's a long pencil, it's a short pencil. This is actually listening to children. Why have you chosen that particular pencil? What is it that really interests you about that pencil? Should we try drawing with it and see what happens? Can you tell me where you've got the pencil from? All those sorts of things. So both parties must contribute to the thinking and it must develop and extend. So the sustained part is very important as well. So that's a breakdown of the formal definition and where that came from in the research. But let's just have a little think about what that means in practice when we are actually working with children. So these are likely to be the really nice long conversations that you have with young children, sorts of things. You might go back into the staff room afterwards and say, you'll never guess what he's just told me all about. They spent the weekend at granddad's and they went and saw the pigeons and he was telling me how the pigeons came home. Um, he was telling me how he got to, how he got to granddad's, and I was asking about what the feeds, the pigeons, all those lovely conversations that you are likely to share with a colleague somewhere down the line because it's been so interesting and you've learned from them and you've been able to discuss that with children. Chances are that you, um, are engrossed and you're sharing that idea or exploring the narrative together. It is likely that when you're having a, a proper piece of sustained shared thinking with a child or a group of children that you're kind of oblivious to what's going on around you. Obviously you'll be keeping an eye open for safety, but you are really in the moment with them that you are really focusing on what's happening, on what's being said, on actually being with those children and sharing those ideas with those children and really exploring them with them. So, um, the chances are that you're going to both be in gross both yourself and the children. And sometimes it might be that there is an outcome, um, that it's not just a process that you do actually need to, um, sort out some kind of dilemma that you need to sort out a problem. And it does take time to do because it's much easier to say, oh, you have the red bike for five minutes and then you're going to swap over. Rather than actually getting the two children together and saying, right, how do you think we should share the red bike? You tell me what it is that you need from this red bike. Do you need to ride it now? And really have those conversations? And it does take more time and it does take a bit more effort, but it's so worthwhile for the children. You get to understand the children more, they get to be appreciated and they feel more valued as well. Whilst you're having those conversations, I just want to, um, come back to the word thinking. Um, the authors of the epi report did a book called Early Childhood Matters, and in that book they broke down chapter by chapter some of the conclusions that they came to in the research. Um, and of course I went straight to the sustained shared thinking and the reason they chose the actual phrase, sustained shared thinking. Um, and they chose the word thinking rather than dialogue or conversation or communication, all of which would've fitted in there. The sustained and the shared were obviously essential, but the reason why they chose the word thinking is because they needed to be an exchange of ideas. It's not just simply a conversation and you both walk away and nobody's any the wiser There is actually that sharing of ideas. There's some thought that's gone into the process. It's more than simply a conversation basically. And it's more than, um, an adult passing information onto a child. It's much deeper than that. And most importantly for me is that it is something that you can do all the time. You don't have to have it in a literacy hour or you don't have to have it in a specific time in the afternoon. You can literally do sustain shared thinking from the moment that children walk in the door to the moment that they go outta the door. Um, one of the times when I got it severely wrong, um, I had a little lad come in who had got the biggest conco and it was beautiful. It was sort of, um, autumn time and he'd picked up the conco his way in, he'd come in with his granddad and it was beautiful and shiny and it was a gorgeous color and it was obviously fresh outta the shell. Um, so I did as I, as I think a lot of practitioners would do, you start to talk about the conquer and oh, that's come from a horse, chestnut tree, hasn't it? And oh, isn't that big? Can you see how big it's, can you see what the colors are? It's really shiny, isn't it? It's really round. It's like a globe. It's, and all that, all that information I was imparting to him rather than stopping and listening to what he was trying to tell me. And the thing he was trying to show me with that conquer as his granddad interrupted and actually told me was that they'd come the long way round when they'd walked into nursery that morning and they'd gone past the big conquer tree on the corner. And his conquer was his way of introducing that conversation to me that they'd walked the long way around. It wasn't actually about the conquer at all. It was about giving me an in for that conversation. Had I stopped and actually listened rather than trying to do the practitioner thing and impart information to him, I would've had a much deeper and much better conversation with him. And that was a real learning lesson for me, that you do have to stop and listen to what the children are trying to tell you, not assume that you know what it is. Okay? So, um, that that's why it's sustained shared thinking. It is a two-way process and it's that thinking process. And the other thing I just wanted to flag up was that, um, the sustained shared thinking isn't always between adults and children. Um, I've, I've spoken as if it is always, but it isn't. And you can have sustained shared thinking between adults and babies and between older children as well and younger children. So you sustained shared thinking with a baby might be a, um, shared joint attention. Um, so if you see an airplane outta the window and you are holding, you are holding a baby and you're looking out the window, you might point at the airplane and the baby points at the airplane as well, and he turns to you and looks and then looks back to the airplane and points, and then he sees a bird flying past and he points at that and you point at it and start talking and giving him some of that language that is a sustained, a piece of sustained shared thinking because you have a shared interest in something you are both pointing in. There is an understanding that both of those things are flying through the air and you can see them from the window. These are the proto conversations, the early conversations that you have with children, with babies before they get actual language. But it's still a communication, it's still a speech and there's still an understanding of what you're trying to demonstrate to each other. Sustain shared thinking can be very powerful between children and it often happens in those little Heidi holes in the den when the children think that practitioners can't hear them. So those little times when they've crept off and they've found, um, a worm and they're having a chat about the worm and they're talking about, um, will it turn into a butterfly? All those lovely little conversations that they don't know are going on that you can hear that are going on. And children obviously learn from each other, and I'm thinking very much here of child minders as well. Child minders very often have children of very different ages, and the older children, the more knowledgeable others, very often sit and talk with the children and explain things to the younger children. And you can see some beautiful pieces of staying shared thinking going on between older children and younger children as the older ones explain a concept or they clarify something for the younger children and explain. And that might be reading something from a book. It might be showing them how to put the Lego pieces together. That might be all sorts of things. Um, but that you can get some really nice pieces of sustain shared thinking between children as well. So basically it's between interested parties, whatever their age it, and that can be practitioners and obviously parents, um, and carers and and everybody else that are working or with children as well. Um, so those interactions have to be very valuable and they can be, um, between children and between children and adults. So that's what sustained shared thinking is, that's the definition. Um, and that's where there's a few of the examples that you might have, but what are the benefits? Why do we bother doing that? Because it does take time and I've already said it takes extra effort. If you're going to clarify a problem like that, what are the benefits? You get to know the children in more depth, um, and really can tune in and attune to the children, um, on an emotional level. So that builds those, um, relationships that trust the respect for the children's view and listening through children's voice, whether that is an actual voice that you are listening to or in the case of babies, whether, whether you are, um, appreciating what it is that they're trying to communicate to you in their own way. So you'll get to know your own children and you'll get to know their own interests. Obviously that's important for things like schematic play if you're looking for schemas and also for understanding where they are, um, in the family, in the community, and understanding some of those wider issues as well. Children's metacognition is improved, which is a lifelong skill, um, that will support children. Metacognition is understanding about our own understanding. So for example, if I asked you to add seven and eight, you might do that two different ways or three different ways even. Um, you might say, well, seven and seven add one because that's eight is seven plus one. Or you might say, um, five and two and five and three. There's loads of different ways that you can do that. But understanding how you do that in your own head is understanding your own cognition. Your metacognition children need to be shown that they are thinking in a certain way and just as importantly, that other people and other children may think in a different way. They may not be aware of that thinking going on because obviously you can't hear it inside people's heads. But when you're having a piece of sustained shared thinking and you're clarifying a problem maybe or you're talking about something, it's a great way for children to understand that other children and other adults have different perspectives, have different views, have different ways of solving the same problem. And neither is right or wrong, it's just a different way of doing things. And that meta cogni cognition, understanding about our own thinking is something that they will need in the future. And it's something that they can get started with certain in the early years and really helps 'em understand maybe if they hit a problem that there's maybe another way round of doing this, that there isn't just one solution, it encourages a mastery disposition. So discussing with children, respecting their views, encourage them to think through their own problems so they solve it themselves rather than just saying, oh, come here, I'll do it for you. Let them think about it and talk about it until they solve it. There themselves encourages that mastery, that disposition, the try, try, try again. I can do this. And that's excellent for self-esteem, for PSCD, for personal social and emotional development. Obviously it almost goes without saying that it's excellent for communication and language and supports all those communication skills. As a practitioner, you can give, um, those words to the children, you can use the more complex sentence structures. There's lots that you can do with language when you're having a piece of sustained shared thinking, just kind of without the children even noticing that you are doing that. And obviously communication, turn, taking, waiting, knowing that communication is that backwards and forwards, um, that that goes on. That's what will happen in sustain shared thinking and it's a great way to do it without having a formal sit down, um, lesson about it. And it's something that they're interested in as well. So they're going to be engaged with that learning. It's a great way to reflect on your own practice. Once you start to learn about children and really listen to them and use that active listening and that positive questioning, you can really learn about them and you can learn your own from your own practice as well and improve your own practice from that. Obviously it is free that you don't need any special kit for it. You just go ahead and do it and it's thoroughly enjoyable. There's nothing nicer than coming away from a conversation with a chart and really thinking, wow, they've made me think they've really made me have to work hard as to how I'm going to explain this particular problem, how I'm going to explain this concept. And that's really, really enjoyable. And sometimes you can learn surprising things, things you didn't know about. Uh, I was working, um, in the preschool room after the February half term and a little ladder come to me and said that he'd been to the beach for half term. And we lived, um, quite close to North Wales and I'd assumed he'd gone across to North Wales as a lot of people had done for the half term. Uh, and I was talking to him about going to the beach and he sort of, they, they stayed in like the shed thing near the beach. I thought I must have stayed in one of the caravan parks. And in my own mind, I got sorted out exactly what had happened and I could see, um, what he was trying to tell me. And for some reason I said to him, oh, so was there a different flag? Tell me about the flag. And he said, oh yes, it was different colors. I said, oh, was there a dragon on the flag? He said, no, there wasn't a dragon on the flag. I'm like, okay, so what colors were there? Let's go and have a look. Let's make some flags. So went Andrew, um, like a, a gold cross on a blue background. And I was a bit curious about this because that's nothing like the Welsh flag. It is the wrong colors, it's the wrong shape, it's everything. So I started to become curious and started to properly pay attention and actually listen to what he was telling me rather than giving it that superficial treatment. And when I actually started to listen, it said he'd been on a plane and that it had taken quite a long time to get there, and I started to realize that he'd actually gone somewhere else. So when mum came to pick him up, I sort of said, oh, she did you go away at half term. And she said, oh yes, my husband's Swedish. And we'd gone to Sweden and we'd stayed at their lodge by the lake and we'd gone to the beach. And, and so that's exactly what he'd told me. But because I'd taken that bit of extra time to listen and really have that proper conversation with that little lad, I've found out, um, more about his family, about what's his interests were, what he'd been doing, rather than just jumping to those really obvious conclusions. But just sitting back and really listening to him, uh, I'm not saying it's easy. It is very, very tough, especially when you're in a busy setting, when you've got lots of other things going on. And I know what it's like at the back of your mind. You've got, um, oh, who's gonna cut the snack? What time is it started to rain? We have to get their coats out now, aren't we? What's he up to? Oh, it's on the, you know, all those things that are going on in your mind as well. And it can be very difficult to clear your mind of that, to really focus on having those lovely deep conversations with children. Which brings me to the outdoors. I've been thinking about the outdoors a lot because, um, this years, the Spring summit is all about the outdoors. So I've been speaking, um, to some really great outdoor experts and learning all about the outdoors, uh, and all the benefits to children's play in learning outdoors. And a lot of, um, what I was hearing every time somebody started to tell me about the benefits, I'm thinking, yes, that's sustained shared thinking that is ideal for sustained shared thinking. Um, and it's becoming more and more evident to me that the outdoors is an excellent place for sustained shared thinking. So what sort of benefits are we seeing? It's a very different time and space outdoors for children. You know what it's like when it is windy outside and they're indoors, it's let's get them outdoors. Let get some of that energy worn off because that's where they do go outside and they change. We know that they change. We know that that extra, that extra space, being able to physically run around to be able to use their voices to their full force does change children. So being outside and having that time and space makes it much easier to have those sustain air thinking there's fewer right and wrong a answers outdoors, indoors. If you pick up a book and you say to a child, what's it say on the front of the book? They're smart enough to know that you know what's on the front of the book, but they're testing you what they're, the child knows that there's a right answer and there's a wrong answer that they might give the wrong answer. Whereas if you go to a log and lift up a log, what's underneath the log, nobody knows there might be anything underneath that log in the way of mini beast anything. And the children know that so that they know that if you say to a, a group of children, let's have a look under this log, I wonder what's under here? They know you don't know the answer as well. So there are no right and wrongs and these sorts of things can happen obviously without any kind of setup at all overnight. You could have had a rainfall and there's now a muddy puddle. Um, the little animals that come and go in the garden, the birds that fly in the mini bees that you find there. All of that's constantly changing. So as a practitioner, you've no idea what it's going to be and nor of the children. And that journey of discovery together is ideal for sustained shared thinking, for having those conversations before you lift the log. I wonder what it's gonna be, what do you think it might be? Or I think it might be this, can you remember last time we lifted it? What was under there? All those sorts of things. You can have those discussions as you're lifting the log and really get the thinking process going first. And obviously it's a much, um, more dynamic changing environment. It's the weather's constantly changing, the light's constantly changing. Certainly the time of year in the winter when you've got, um, quite short days and you get in the dark nights, you've got all the things that come with that and all the shadows and everything else that comes with that and the change in the weather. So it's a more dynamic, um, environment as well. Okay. There's more problem solving opportunities. So for example, if you are getting toys out outside or even if you're just getting loose parts or just using some of the toys that are already out there, there's lots more opportunities to move things around. So you haven't got, say for example, fixed equipment, you haven't got, um, the books are gonna have to go back on the bookshelf. The home corner is set up in a certain way outdoors. You tend to be much freer about where you can put things, how you can get things out, and the sorts of ways that you can manipulate the environment. So there's a lot more problem solving opportunities out there for children. And of course things like social development as well, sharing and carrying those, um, big outdoor blocks together, carrying the logs, um, moving the ropes around. All those things are great for problem solving opportunities as well. Similarly, of course, um, there's, it is lovely to have those little hide holes outside that little gap behind the tree where only the children can fit and it's their private little space where they can sit and talk together. The time when you put up the pop-up tents and they're creeping into the tents and they don't know that you can hear them talking inside there, all those little hide holes, all those little opportunities for just going away and being quiet together in little groups of children is a great time for them to share sustained shared thinking for them to actually have those lovely deep conversations. And that's a great time for practitioners to stand back and allow that to happen. Maybe just keep an eye on, obviously for safety, but, and, and a bit of an ear if you want to record some of that. But just allow them to enjoy that time together in their little heidi holes. So in summary, there's a lot more opportunities outdoors for sustained shared thinking and it's a really nice place to go out with the children and explore together and really see what's out there together. I want to just add a couple of caveats on that. However, practitioners have to make the most of these opportunities and um, actually value them. It's very tempting when you get outside and I'm absolutely guilty of this, of um, arranging games and getting the bikes out and um, oh, we're going to do a circle game. We're going to do a running game. Uh, how about we do this? What about with? Sometimes you just need to stand back and allow the children to get on with it. Similarly, if you do have an aversion to mini bees, I'm not so bad with mini bees, I don't mind holding worms or, um, picking up spiders. That's okay, but not everybody is. But you do have to value those opportunities. Even if you don't want to touch the worm, you can still have a conversation while the child holds the worm for you. You can still have those sustained shared conversations, um, and actually share some of that thinking with the children. But you've got to see those opportunities as well. There's no good standing in the doorway, um, with your gloves on and, um, stamping your feet. You need to be out there with the children actually getting, getting in there. It's really important that we encourage and support creativity and critical thinking. And that's obviously, um, where the tails toolkit comes in as well because the creativity and the critical thinking is so important to move children's thinking on and to really stretch and challenge their ideas. So rather than just giving them the solutions, really stretch them. And again, it's really difficult to do because you know the answer. You know that if they turn that log round, if they pull the rope in a different direction, it's going to work. But you've got to stand back and allow them that critical thinking and that really creativity. And very often you'll find that they come up with a different solution. It might not be the most obvious solution to you, but to them it makes a lot more sense. And that critical thinking is so important. And the final one, and again, I'm very guilty of this, be careful for not subverting the conversation into a tick box requirement. So the minute that children see a butterfly going past and, um, we are talking about flying, we're talking about butterflies and where do they come from? Um, the temptation is to start, oh, what colors do you think the butterfly are? Oh, red and black, right? I can tick red and black. He knows that. How many wings has he got? Oh, he is got four wings, right? You can count to four. I can tick that off. All those things. It's really, really tempting to start filling in the evidence boxes. Sustain your thinking is all about being in the moment with children, having those really lovely conversations, just you and them, having that really nice positive questioning. The talking alongside, um, that really active listening, being with them in the moment. As I say, it's a lovely, lovely thing to do with children, but you've got to, to make sure that you are actually with them in the moment. So that's my caveats. Um, so for me, sustain your thinking has tons and tons of benefits. I've mentioned their, um, active questioning, positive listening, the, um, I go into that in more details on my online training course. But basically, um, the positive questioning is not just peppering them with lots and lots of questions, but how, why, what, where, when, all those things. Um, and active listening, as I've already said, is really clearing your mind of everything else and being there with the children, physically being there as well, being down at their eye level, um, focusing on what they're saying and being with the, in the moment with them. And I cover that in, um, the online training. There's four modules on there and one, there's one module on each of those as well as the top techniques as well for, um, sustained shared thinking. And then finally, I just want to have a quick mention about the outdoor Play learning summit, which is really coming together beautifully. It's all about learning, um, learning good practice from speakers from around the world. And I have got speakers from right around the globe from, um, New Zealand to, to America and back again. Lots and lots of top tips and strategies and learning all about outdoor play, about what we can do for children, how we can make that outdoor play, um, really meaningful. Also, things like designing your outdoor area as well as, um, what practitioner's role is in the outdoors, uh, and making the most of your outdoor space, whether that's the giant field or whether that's the tiniest backyard or, and I have somebody talking about, um, child minders or people who have no, um, outdoor space. So they have to go and find outdoor space that's free broadcast, um, between the 26th of March and the 1st of April. And if you want to, you can buy the video and transcripts as well. Okay, I'm going to hand back to Kate there now. Yeah. Hello. I'm back in again. That was, that was great. That was great, Kathy. That was really good. And I think for me it was really interesting 'cause there was so many links with the stuff that we do around kind of open-ended items and, and for me when I was teaching, my favorite place was always outdoors. Like I was always in the garden. And I think it's such an easier space to manage too, because you've got that freedom in terms of space and you can be working with smaller groups of children. So yeah, it was great, great to kind of listen to your talk, so, so yeah. Yeah. Um, so I had a couple of questions that came through. Um, the first one was from Charlotte who said, um, what do you consider to be the biggest benefit of sustained shared thinking? Ooh, good question, Charlotte. Um, I think the biggest benefit is that, um, it's respect for children and it's showing that you really respect their views and, um, it, because you are listening to what they're saying, you're not just saying, oh, that's lovely dear. I'll look, you know, go and put it on the drying rack. You are really respecting what they're saying and you're really listening and you're having that two way conversation. Mm-Hmm. So I think the biggest benefit is that, that respect. And I also think the, the add on benefit for practitioners is that you get to know about children. You understand their way of thinking because that becomes clear when you start talking to them. And also their level of understanding. Um, if they sort of say something that's a bit, um, unusual, you can go, okay, why do you think that? Where's that come from? So, yeah, I think the biggest, that's the biggest benefits. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, we used to find, um, when we were teaching and working with schools that some schools would get quite scared by the term sustained shared thinking. Do you find that with some teachers? Um, and I'm not sure if I'd use the word scared, but I've certainly had people sort of like, oh, it's just a new, it's a new fangled thing. It's a new, and, and I have to, the number of times that I've said in training courses, it's not new. It's what you do all the time. Um, so it's, it isn't anything new. The phrase itself, as I say, is been a, well, it's gonna be get coming up for 20 years soon, but the phrase is new, but the ideas and, um, good practitioners have been doing it forever. And of course, parents and, and everybody else do it the whole time. Yeah, that's good to hear. 'cause I think that sometimes people put a lot more emphasis on it, but like you said, it's just about those really great interactions. So Yeah. Um, one of the, um, other things that came through was Rachel said about it being beneficial for safeguarding. So would you like to chat about that? Yes. Now that's, that's a really, really interesting one. Yeah. Um, right. So I was working in Sho Start Center and I little lad who was painting next to me Yeah. And one of the techniques that you can use, um, when you are in your positive questioning, rather than peppering them, the questions, um, is to just sort of chat alongside and, um, just listen to what they're saying. And he started off, I can't even remember how it started, but he started saying, um, uh, does your dad shout at you? And I'm, I'm drawing, I, I remember vividly I was doing a snail, I was doing a spiral. Yeah. Um, and I said, oh, yeah, sometimes I do, don't they? He said, yeah, my dad shouts at me. And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. So anything in particular. And he started to tell me he wasn't looking. We didn't make eye contact at all throughout the whole thing. Yeah. Uh, we were both painting, but just having that conversation and having that respect and listening to him, he actually, um, told me some, some information I then had to go and write down and disclose as well. Yeah. Um, but yes, I think that's a really, really good point for, for safeguarding. It is a really good tool. Yeah. It's an excellent point. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, 'cause we get a lot of information, sensitive information that comes through stories, and I think it's a big part of that is when you were saying earlier about that there's no wrong answer and there's no judgment. And that they know they're in a safe place with you, that they can, they can say whatever's on their mind. So yeah, I think those relationships have been built there. It's good. Yeah. Um, uh, a question that's just come through is how do you get staff to get down and be with the children and not talk at them? So what's your tips for dealing with tricky staff? That's a difficult one. That's a really difficult question. I mean, I guess the, the, the sort of, um, the full answer would be something like, well, it depends on it's person to person and you've got to do attitude training rather than, um, content training. But it is, it is very, very difficult. I find very often. Um, and I have videoed staff as well and stood back afterwards and said, that's a beautiful piece, videoed good practice rather than poor practice. And said, look, that's really nice. Can you see how that child's like making eye contact that's really opening up to you and demonstrating really good practice and sort of, um, showing how it can be done. Sort of giving an exemplar, I suppose. Yes. Um, but it's tricky. And I think one of the big things is that very often practitioners will say to me, but I'm not asking them questions. And if they're not asking questions, they're not doing a tick box. They're not taking evidence or writing on a yellow sticky note, then they're not doing their job. And very often I've said to people, no, actually being with the children, having those conversations, that is your job plus a bit. That is so important. Yeah. And look, once you've had that conversation, you can, if you want to go and tick box it, that's great. You don't have to. But look, all the stuff that you could evidence, look all that information that you've found, oh by the way, you've really increased your self-esteem and you've got to know a bit more about his family as well. So to really value it and to really, um, really explain to practitioners how important it is. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Yep. Um, just on that note, what would your kind of tips for explain it to management be? Because I know there's probably some schools out there that will have, um, maybe sort of se senior management team that are maybe early years trained. Uh, what would your advice be there? Oh, buy the book. Yeah, good thinking. What's the webinar? Buy the webinar. Yeah. I think, um, from, from a management point of view, they tend to value, um, different things. So if I sort of said, oh, it's A-P-S-E-D, they might be going, well, yeah, you can get that elsewhere. But if you can say things like, you're going to make a real, genuine, authentic, um, communication with the parents, that you're going to have proper conversations with those children and you're setting them up well for literacy because of all that language or the communication that's going in. Yeah. I think you have to find the trigger points of, um, what the senior leadership team are actually looking for. And if they, you know, if they're hot button is literacy, it covers literacy. If it's maths, it covers maths, you know, and, and, and do it like that. Yeah. It was quite interesting actually 'cause I was speaking to a literacy expert from one of the boroughs and she was saying that when you get to SATs in year six, then the children to be able to get the higher levels there, they need to be able to think creatively and think outside the box. So Yeah. And she was saying that for her, a lot of children can't get those higher levels 'cause they haven't got those skills. So that was really interesting for me to hear. Yeah. So this is how you get it. Exactly. And that's what I, well that's all about isn't it, is creativity and critical thinking and having that modeled for you in the early years so that, you know, and that metacognition understanding about your own thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Um, we've got a question came through from Sarah. Um, she said, we've got lots of boys who need to go outside as they have lots of gum making and violent loud play. Is there any outdoor ideas apart from superheroes? Oh gosh. Right. Um, yeah, there's, there's lots of things for outdoor, outdoor play. I'm trying to think what we've, uh, what we've already got on the summit. So there's lots of things, um, around what, what people are telling me, the experts are telling me is that, um, collaboration and that working together. So setting them a challenge, how can they, um, get the logs from one side to the other? How can they build the biggest tower? So getting them to collaborate together and, and working some of that off. And that doesn't have to be a static, that could be something that's running or moving or jumping. You know, how many, how high can you make it before you, um, you know, that's still safe to jump off? How high can you climb in the tree? All those sorts of things. Mm-Hmm. So it's, um, it's diverting some of that energy into something else. But again, lots of loose parts, lots of natural spaces. Um, because if you have a fixed outdoor space, then the pirate ship's always gonna be a pirate ship. But if you have loose parts and you have that creativity going on, then their energy's going to be thinking about how you can then use that to make it into a fort, to make it into a pirate ship. Um, so having loose parts outside and having, um, that opportunity really that they can play in many different ways. Mm-Hmm. And it seems like a good idea because then you could link it in with the superhero stuff. You might build a superhero base or camp or Yeah. So yeah, extending on what they're doing. So yeah. Has anybody else got any questions that they'd like to ask? Just kind of give them a little shout out. But is there anything else that you'd like to add, Kathy? No, I think that that's been, um, really interesting. Some really, really good questions going on there. Thanks indeed for those. And I'm really pleased to hear things like safeguarding coming in, coming up. That's excellent. Um, yeah, that's, so that's been really, really interesting. Thank you. Yeah. And do you wanna give another little shout out for your early years summit before you go? Yes, it's free and it's ww dot early years summit.com, all one word. Um, yet you can sign up from now and that'll start broadcasting on the 26th. I've got some top, top people. Jan White, obviously the outdoor guru. Um, she does a really, I've already recorded her. She's done a really, really nice interview for me. That's good. But we've got people from around the world with all sorts of different ideas and some really new ideas. I, one or two that I've actually gone, I've never thought of that before. That is brand new to me. Yes. Um, so yeah, some really exciting stuff going on in the summit at the moment. That's good. So yeah, everyone get down there and signed up for it. So, um, Jenny was just saying, can we watch it back? Uh, the only people that get to watch it back are the members for tells toolkit, but we'll put putting some short clips up online, so, so yeah, get in touch with us if you wanna find out more. So yeah. But thank you everybody for coming out in an evening and I hope you all have a fantastic half and thank you Kathy again. So Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, I'll speak to you again. Okay. Thank you very much everybody. Bye.