WEBVTT - This file was automatically generated by VIMEO. Please email info@talestoolkit.com to report problems. Hello everybody. Um, if you can hear me, can you just type hello so I know that you're all in and it's all working as it should do tonight. Fingers crossed. Tim. Hey, hello, Denise. Hello Sarah. Um, really excited about this webinar tonight. Um, Tim is someone that I've been a massive fan of for a long time. Um, and uh, just to do a quick introduction 'cause I know you are gonna want to hear from him tonight. Um, but Tim is a big advocate and consultant for Children's play. Um, and he has a real focus on people and the places around them. Um, he's worked with policy, with education, with planning, with Urban Design, and he's a massive change maker. Um, so I'm really excited to have him on tonight. Um, he's got a book out, which is all about urban playgrounds and how child-friendly planning can save cities. And he might be chatting a little bit more about that tonight. Um, but he's also published many, many reports, lots of articles, worked with the media, um, worked with lots of kind of companies as a consultant, so clients such as Play England and the National Trust. And like, there's so many things I couldn't fit them on here, to be honest, Tim. Um, but for me, like it's really close to my heart because I, uh, came to listen to one of Tim's talks way back, I mean, probably like a decade ago in Tower Hamlets when I was working as an early as coordinator. And at that point we were designing the garden and all of my plans went out the window. So, um, we'd kind of been given a very small budget to spend and we ended up having like, big climbing trees and streams and a huge sandpit and all sorts of stuff. But Tim was the one that kind of inspired me to do all of that. So yeah, I was really excited to have him on tonight, but I'm gonna hand over to Tim so he can chat. 'cause I know you are all excited to hear him speak. Um, I've got a paper and pen here, so I'm gonna be noting down all of the comments and the things that get you excited. And so any questions at all that you have, then please just throw 'em out and I'll make a note so that we can ask Tim at the end. Um, but yeah, really excited tonight to have you here, Tim, over to you. Great, thank you so much. That's a, a lovely, lovely introduction. Um, I, I, I'm, I I might make a little badge with the word change maker and, and, and wear it. Um, and, uh, it's, it's really nice to hear, uh, that, you know, that I, I think I can remember the event. Mm-Hmm. Um, but, but it's just, it's, it's lovely when people, you know, and it's not the first time, and I hope it won't be the last sort of come back and say, oh, that talk that you gave or that piece of work that you did, uh, really stuck with me. That that is, that is mm-Hmm. Partly why I do what I do. I'm not, not going to talk about my new book, very much urban playground. Um, those of you who are really interested in in public space and streets and parks, uh, then that, then that side of my work, uh, really the book is the sort of distillation of, of a lot of my thinking on that. But I'm gonna talk about the other side, which is really around risk and outdoor play, and especially how, uh, all of us who work with children, especially educators, play workers, can take a balanced and thoughtful approach. So that's tonight's topic. I'm going to probably talk for about half an hour. Um, yeah, please use the chat. Um, Kate's gonna mainly be monitoring that and looking out for, for questions, comments, um, and, uh, then we'll have a reasonable amount of time at the end for more, more wider discussion and, um, and hopefully it'll be an engaging evening. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna start. Oh, yes, Kate, sorry, I'm gonna duck out now so that people can do a little bit bigger, but I'm here in the background, so I'll chat with the end. Yeah. Fantastic. So I'm just gonna kick off with a question that I would like everybody if they can to answer in the chat. Um, and here's the question. So, uh, think about your favorite place to place. So the places you used to play when you were young, and picture one place that you would say was your favorite place to play as a child. And really briefly, two or three words. Type it into the chat. Um, there you go. Kate's, uh, off the mark already. And, uh, the forest and beach, um, I would talk about, I am gonna talk about, well, let me type in, um, pond on the edge of the village. Uh, and actually there were some woods. Um, it was on the other side of the railway line. And, uh, my friends and I could get up to all sorts of mischief, uh, in fact, okay, confession time. Uh, we, once we took some coins, uh, to this part of the world to, and, and we put two pence pieces on the railway line and then, uh, watched what happens when the trains run over them. Uh, and I can tell you it's a, a very, uh, practical demonstration of the laws of physics, um, and not something I would recommend, uh, don't try this at home, but gives you a flavor of the kind of things that we used to get up to in Pony, which was the nickname for the place that we went to. So I'm reading, uh, some lists. We've got, uh, quite a lot of natural places, uh, the street bomb sites, um, uh, slopes, bankings, um, a canal bank where I wasn't allowed to go. Um, that reminds me of a wonderful Iver Cutler quote where one of his poems where he talks about, um, he's leaving the, you know, the tenement where he lives, and he, his, his mom says, don't go down to the estuary as we left the door to go down to the estuary. Um, okay, so this is very common that the memories that that we have of the, of our most resonant places from when we were young are often places of, uh, possibility of adventure secret places, places where we felt like we were in control. We could go where our inclinations and our imaginations and our, our impulses took us. And where, uh, a adults were, uh, either literally or, or if not, then figuratively outta the picture. Um, and it is not mere nostalgia to remind ourselves of these memories. Um, I, you know, I think there's a tendency to just sort of, oh, that was then, this is now the world's different today. Uh, yes, it, the the world is different today. I'll come onto that. But, um, I am a strong believer that, uh, one of the crucial ingredients of a good enough childhood is that children have some space and time where, uh, to all intents and purposes, they're, they are, they're having a taste of freedom. They're trying, they're trying being human, being on for size. Um, and those sorts of experiences are fading from the lives of children today. And my next slide, um, I think brings that, oops, uh, I'm using a different platform, so I'm gonna just, uh, I'm gonna do that. There we go. Um, my next slide is a map you can see, I hope it illustrates this point. So what you are looking at, and Kate will remember this when I talked, I suspect I use it all the time. It's a kind of map that shows you the roaming range or the home territory of four children. Uh, they're all eight years old, but they happened to be in four generations of the same family, um, who all lived in the same city. And, and so what it illustrates is what I call the shrinking horizons of childhood. The, uh, shift from the great-grandfather in his family with the age of eight could travel six miles across the city on their own, down to the sun today, that's the yellow dot over in the lift. Um, who he's actually allowed to go to the end of his street. And that's more freedom, uh, more right to Rome than most children. Aged eight are allowed today. And this, um, shift towards a kind of childhood that's where children are being reared in captivity. I know it's an emotive phrase, but I think it's, it's, it's not far from the truth. It's one of the most, uh, profound and underexplored in, in children's lives. And we could talk for a long time about why this is happening. I think it's complicated, but I'm not gonna do that. I'm, what I'm, I'm hoping that you will, uh, agree with is that there is something important about these kinds of experiences, um, and that we need to ensure that children today have something like that same taste of freedom, not necessarily exactly the same, um, but that, uh, you know, it, we as educators and just as people need to ensure that there are these times in, in children's lives. Um, and most of what I do and what gets me outta bed in the mornings is reflecting on and responding to this change that's encapsulated in this map. So, I'm gonna talk a bit more about risk and childhood, why I get got interested in it, um, what a balanced approach looks like. And I'm gonna touch a bit on, on parents on the scary stuff about regulations and the law that's actually not so scary. And then close with just a few, um, really short suggestions and ideas and a list of resources. So, um, that's the kind of the narrative arc. And, um, I'm going to start with a couple of images. Again, let's just see in the chat, um, I want to, if I'm gonna show you a picture of a couple of objects, and if you have worked in settings where the use of these objects has been banned, I want you to type band or in the chat, so BABA, double NED band. Um, so here you go. They're egg boxes and toilet roll holders. So, uh, keyboards at the ready, if anyone who's there we go. We've got three or 4, 5, 6 people already. I did a workshop a couple of weeks ago with some people on the isle of white, about 18 and nine of the, um, practitioners, uh, roughly said yes. Okay, so I have news for you. Uh, it is a myth that you can't use egg boxes and toilet holders, uh, roll holders. In fact, it was myth of the month, uh, from the health and safety executive for August, 2007. No credible organization has ever said that you can't use, or you shouldn't use egg boxes and toilet roll holders in craft sessions. Um, and the fact that large numbers of you, I slightly lost count, but, but we've got at least 10, um, have worked in settings where they've been banned, gives you a sense of the degree to which we are, we live in a world with this free floating anxiety about, uh, the things that might do harm to children. So my interest in this topic came not through egg boxes and toilet roll holders, it came through playgrounds. So I used to work for a charity called the Children's Play Council, and it was really clear to us back in the late nineties and the early noughties that this preoccupation with, uh, what I call in, in no fear, um, the zero risk mindset. Um, this idea that we have to eliminate all possible sources of harm was causing real problems and leading to these, uh, kind of playgrounds like this one. Um, and there was that one moment that helped sort of distill my anxieties and, and, and get a sense of what we needed to do about it. And that was hearing, uh, the Danish landscape architect Hele ne Long, who, uh, is a true genius. And I, I'm count myself, lucky to have her as a friend. Um, and she came to speak for the first time in the uk, uh, to over 20 years ago, to conference in Portsmouth. And this is what she said, that playgrounds, standardized playgrounds are dangerous, but just in another way, um, when the distance between all the rungs in a climbing natural ladder is exactly the same, the child has no need to concentrate on where he puts his feet. And then she says, this lesson cannot be carried over to the nobby and asymmetrical forms with which one is confronted throughout life. It's kind of hard to believe that Hele was speaking in probably her third or fourth language there. I think it's just beautiful, um, prose. But I hope you can see the point that she's making that are perhaps well-meaning attempts to keep children safe are actually counterproductive because they're denying children the very experiences that help them learn how to deal with, you know, the everyday ups and downs of life. Um, you know, to be resilient, uh, to, to, to use a word that is, is actually really important in this context. So, um, I'm pleased to say that things are a little bit better now than they were when Hele was speaking. Uh, and, and, and so here is a picture of a more recent, uh, playground. This is the Tumbling Bay playground in the Olympic Park in London, just a couple of miles down the road from me, quite close to where Kate normally lives. I've just discovered, uh, in Stratford. And I hope you agree, it looks kind of different. Um, it's close to my heart. It's, it's a project that I was closely involved with from the outset. Uh, and it really is the kind of place where, um, people look a bit baffled. Is this allowed? Um, it's, it's very, uh, it has, this is just part of it, but it, there are parts that really make very adventurous offers to children where children really have to figure out if they're actually brave enough to, for instance, climb up that twisty, turny, um, tree thing, uh, on the left. So this change has come about, uh, because of a parallel change in the way playground designers and the industry, if you like, thought about risk. And at the heart of the change is, oh, oh, sorry. Just before I get to that, I just want to nail why this, these sorts of experiences are important and, and, and it's that if we think about childhood, childhood is amongst other things a kind of journey. Um, and at the beginning of that journey, children are utterly dependent, uh, for adults for their basic needs, their most basic needs. And, and Kate will confirm this, I've just learned, she's, she's the parent of a three month old baby. I can just about remember that, uh, period of life myself. Um, my daughter's now 23. Um, but as children grow up, they gradually get better at stuff and they, uh, learn how to do stuff, and they take more everyday responsibility for, for, for their, the spaces and times that they find themselves in their lives. And so you could say that childhood is characterized by a kind of gradual transfer of risk management responsibility from adults to children, and that that transfer of responsibility is inevitable and it's best done in a series of gradual steps. And, and one of the ways of describing how we've got get things wrong today is that we're, we're not allowing children those gradual steps. So we are leaving some big steps, you know, towards the end, uh, in the adolescent years, uh, when, uh, it's actually not that easy, uh, to learn those practical skills and where there's all sorts of other things going on and where we know children are, and young people are facing real pressures. Um, and indeed there are mental health experts who think that partly, uh, we we're experiencing young people are experiencing a kind of, um, learned helplessness. Again, it's a, it's an emotive phrase, but, but they're not given the chance earlier in their childhood to learn some, some, uh, coping mechanisms that have in the past helped to make that turbulent part of life called adolescence a bit less turbulent. So, okay, so that playground that I showed you of Tumbling Bay in the Olympic Park, how did that, how is it that playgrounds like this can come about? The answer is because those of us who are involved in, in playground safety back in the early noughties argued that playgrounds are not like factories or workplaces in terms of risk, okay? In a factory or a workplace, basically, risk is bad. You don't want stuff that can harm people. You, you might have to put up with it, but as far as possible, you just, you, you, you figure out what can do harm, and then you try and control and limit that harm. So that's a conventional risk assessment. You can see the simple process there on the left. But, uh, when it comes to children's learning and play, you are in a very different ball game. You are actually balancing risks and benefits, and you are doing that because of the benefits of risk, because there are some experiences and lessons and, and, and there's some learning that only come about when children are exposed to a degree of risk. And if you take away those risks, you also take away the learning opportunities and the benefits. So that is a game changing move, and it's really at the heart of, uh, the, um, shift that I'm gonna be talking a bit more about tonight, by the way, this process risk benefit assessment, um, you, you may not have heard of it if you've, if you've, if you're in forest school, you probably have heard of it, but it's more common than you might think. It's not, this is not a radical idea. So, for example, uh, I, I won't dwell on what we've all been going through for almost exactly a year now, but I will just point out that since fairly early on in the, and in the pandemic when schools were reopening, the government has been putting out guidance. And if you look at that guidance and you look at the wording, what the guidance is describing and asking school leaders to do is risk benefit assessment. It's asking schools to make judgements about how you balance the risk of infection spread and disease on the one hand, with the benefits of having children in, uh, school and learning and, and, and, and in settings. On the other hand, now I'm not saying this is easy, and I'm not saying everything the government has done is right and all that. They've provided enough support in this judgment process, but I think, uh, the government is right and it is the right thing to do to say judgments need to be made. This is about making sound judgments, uh, about risks and benefits. Okay, so I think now we're gonna have a slight video interlude. Um, and this is where Kate or one of Kate's able assistant is gonna show a brief one and a half minute YouTube video. The technology we tested it should be great. And this is just a little clip from a, uh, a setting, uh, that brings out some issues about risks. So I'd like you to just, uh, sit back, enjoy the clip, um, and then I'll talk about it a little bit and maybe ask one or two questions afterwards. So, fingers crossed. Oh, that's really, can, that's been an, a really kind of easy, I guess my daddy could be here. I'm gonna save, but do you know what? You've got all these people here that could save you. Yeah, but I mean, I'm standing that and I'm am affect, are you wanting my hands? Would that make you feel better or would you rather do it on your own? I, I did try fast. I I wanna try that. It looks so, I, I, so be careful. Oh, walk in the plank. Now this might, this might help you get across too. Now that you've seen someone do it make you feel a little bit better. I can try. I think I'm a bit scared. That's okay. Is there anything you can do til you feel more comfortable about it, to make you feel, yeah, I can secure the plank while you walk over it? How would you secure the plank? I'm gonna, okay, then why don't you try, I need secure the plank. You can. I oh two bridges. Why would two bridges make it better? One Jessie sat phone. Ah, you got it. Yes. Uh, she did it. Um, so I'm just going to again, uh, ask people to type into the chat, uh, the answer to some answers to this question. Okay. So what did that girl and maybe the other children involved, but let's focus on that girl. I think, what did she get outta that experience? You know, uh, it, it, what what kind of benefits if you ha if you're having to do a risk benefit assessment, this is actually what sort of, what's involved? What kind of things might you talk about in terms of the benefits of that? You know, obviously slightly risky and in quite scary, uh, um, episode for the, for the children. So, um, confidence ability to, to take a risk sense of achievement. I thought that, you know, it's a lovely to see, uh, the girls', uh, uh, sense of achievement at the end. Um, risk assessing herself. Somebody said, Charles, so that's a really good point. This is, and it goes to my point a minute ago about, if we take away the risk, we take away the learning and the benefits. Um, there was a lot of cooperation and problem solving, um, lots of conversation, communication. I mean, actually you could come up with, with a big long list balance, um, emotional regulation. Uh, also we could talk a lot about the approach to supervision and, um, you know, the kind of learning mindset of the educator in that frame. Um, uh, but I'm giving you a flavor of the kind of things you might write in the box marked benefits if you were doing a risk benefit assessment. Um, so, uh, the good news, as I've said, is that this approach is not seen as kind of out there and crazy, but is, is becoming, if not mainstream, then, um, an accepted part of progressive practice. So, um, oh, there we are. Uh, next slide. This is a quote from the health and safety executive. They have a, what they call a high level statement. Um, it's, it, it's on their website about children's play and learning, um, and taking a balanced approach. And this statement is only a page and a half long. Uh, in essence says HSE supports risk benefit assessment. So if you are in a setting and you want to take forward this approach, and there's some people saying, well, it doesn't look quite like what we are used to doing, or, or, you know, the forms look a bit different, um, uh, then you can say, the HSE says it's all right. And I'll, I'll share the link to that, uh, resource later on. So, um, I, the approach to risk benefit assessment that I'm been promoting with colleagues for some years now is what we call a narrative approach. So it really just asks people to go through a series of steps and to just say or write what their thinking is. What is your thinking about the benefits for a given activity, for a structure, for a space, for a trip? Uh, it's a generic process. And then, so you start with the benefits. What is it that you want children to get from, uh, in this case, walking the plank? Uh, what are the risks? What are the things that might go wrong? But before you get to weighing up the risks and benefits and making a judgment, there's a couple of other things you might want to think about. Uh, and we've, you can see them there. Local factors. What do you know about your children, um, about your setting, um, about, uh, you know, the, the, the, the characteristics, the age range, um, other factors about, about, about that are specific to your circumstance. There may be some quite important things. For instance, the kind of risk experiences that you might offer teenagers would probably be different to the ones that you would offer three year olds. So this would be your chance to make that point. You can see another bullet point here, precedents and comparisons. Um, that's really just a way of saying, what can you learn from what other people have done? So that was Ravenswood Primary School that I just showed you that video clip from. Um, it's a, it's, it's a, a, you know, a school that embraces outdoor learning. You might want to check out other stuff that they've done. Uh, you might want to check out the forest school model to see, uh, if you are thinking about making some changes to your outdoor space. So that precedence and comparison section is particularly helpful if you are in a setting where you want to stop, you know, pushing the boundaries and expanding children's, uh, opportunity to engage with risk. But, uh, either you are a bit nervous or some of your colleagues, or there's some, some barriers, uh, and then you make a decision and then you carry out that decision. So, so it's, it's, it's a actually a fairly common sense approach. And, and I'd encourage you to, to have a go at it yourself. Um, as for what it might look like in a little bit more detail, um, and what it means in, in terms of supervision and, and oversight. I'm just gonna share with you an anecdote, um, from a school. It's a kindergarten I've visited in Toronto. Um, and it's a beautiful illustration of, of how this mindset is put into practice. So this is, it's, it's a completely, uh, on the face of it, ordinary suburban, kindergarten and elementary school. Um, actually not a particularly adventurous, um, or, or, or at least wild outdoor space. But the kindergarten had a principle that was convinced of the value of outdoor play and learning. And one of the things that she had all of her staff do is what she called the 17 second rule. What's the 17 second rule? Well, it works like this. If an educator sees a child who's uncertain, who's worried, who's anxious, who's maybe fallen over, or who's maybe having an argument or in dispute, um, you know, in some ways facing a challenging situation, uh, then they should wait 17 seconds before they step in. Okay? Now, my time is pressing on, so I'm not gonna show you exactly how long 17 seconds is, but it's quite a long time. Um, by the way, this is a rule of thumb. It's not mandatory. And needless to say, there'll be some circumstances where it'll be broken, but you can see the point I hope, which is that it recognizes that, um, there's a danger in overseeing children's play and learning outta doors, or in fact, for that matter, indoors. Uh, we step in too soon. And by stepping in too soon and intervening, we close down on opportunities for children to really see through that situation and figure out a solution and a way forward on their own terms. So that's a 17 second rule. Um, I'm, I'm looking at the clock. I'm gonna say a little bit more about parents. Now some of you might be thinking, well, I kind of like all this, but you know, my parents, they're just, they wouldn't be happy about it. So let's think a bit more about parents. The first thing, the most important thing to realize, I think about parents, parents are not all the same, uh, just as children are not all the same. And in terms of risk and children, parents' attitude to sort of child safety, you can imagine parents as being on a kind of spectrum. So at one end of that spectrum, you will may know some parents, uh, we can certainly imagine parents who are in the market for this product on eBay. I hope you can see that these are, um, toddler and knee pads, uh, that, uh, you know, mitigate the risk of injury from children crawling on hard surfaces. Uh, then if you go to the other end of the spectrum, I hope you can read that headline, um, this is a story from the paper. A few years back, mother went on holiday and left children home alone for three weeks. Now, the, my point is, you, we would probably have things to say about parents at both ends, that at the extreme ends of this spectrum, the extremely anxious and risk averse and the extremely negligent or less fair. Um, but most parents are somewhere in the middle. Um, they want their children to be safe, but they also want their children to learn to be confident, capable, independent, responsible people. And I think it's really important to remember this. So, uh, in fact, I'm gonna share another quick anecdote. Um, and it relates to a broken limb. And this time it's from Australia, and it's from an out of school project. Uh, and the project used to have a oh, and hopefully still does have a day that it called Wheels Day. And on Wheels Day, it's about once or twice a term, all the kids could bring in scooters and skateboards and bikes and, you know, have a lot of fun and get a lot of time playing out in the yard with their wheeled toys. And on one wheels stay. Uh, sadly, one child had an accident and fell off and broke. I think it was a broken arm. So the parent said, well, we're gonna have to stop. You can't let the kids carry on having Wheels Day. Uh, it is too dangerous. And to her credit, the center manager didn't just cave into that request, but she actually did a poll, a vote. She had a vote of all her parents, um, and families and said, okay, this has happened. What should we do? And the results from memory were that outta say, 50 families, 49 families said we should carry on with wheels Day. Now, um, my point about this is that, is that, you know, a couple of points. One is in the immediate aftermath of, of, of a, an adverse event, an accident, it's not the best time to make changes. But the other point is that we need to, I think, recognize that sometimes there's only a small handful of parents who are really the ones who are a problem in this context. Um, the anxious and vocal parent. Um, but if we just cave into the anxious and vocal parent, then we, in effect, give them a veto over the experiences that we are offering to all children. And is that really something that we want to do? No, I don't think it is. So we maybe talk a bit more about, about how you move on and help the anxious and vocal parent move on, uh, in the chat. But, um, let's remind ourselves that in legal terms, there is no legal requirement to eliminate risk. There is no legal requirement that says that no child can ever have an adverse event like a broken limb, uh, in your setting. The requirement in the law is to, in simple terms, be reasonable, okay? Reasonableness is our goal. Um, take reasonable steps. Uh, the health and safety work act as low as reasonably practicable is the key phrase. So if somebody is asking you to go beyond what is reasonable, then they are being unreasonable. Okay? And I think it's really important to hold onto that notion of reasonableness. Um, this brings us on to questions about litigation and the compensation culture and all of that. Um, I've written a report on that. Um, I, I, I think, uh, I, I'll try and share it in the chat, but, okay, so there is a risk of litigation. Sometimes people get sued for accidents that happen to children. But here's a question for you. Uh, this is just a rhetorical question. How much do you think schools pay out for claims, accident claims around outdoor learning injuries? I'll give you a second to just think about the figure, and then I will share with you the figure. It's less than five pounds a year per school. Okay? So, uh, yes, sometimes there is litigation, and sometimes that's actually fair enough because somebody's got something badly wrong. Um, but it doesn't happen all that often. Uh, it's not a massive epidemic of claims that we're seeing. In fact, there's evidence that the level of claims, uh, in these sorts of topics is, um, in, in decline in recent years. I know there's gonna be some chat about that. So I, I'll move on for now. I just wanna close with a, a, a few ideas and some pointers. Um, so here's a set of ideas. Some of you, I'm sure are doing some of this stuff already, but just topics where you, in your setting or with your work, can think about that goal of expanding children's horizons and broadening the diet of experiences that are on offer and allowing children a bit more of that taste of freedom and responsibility. Um, I'm a big fan of Forest School, as you've probably already spotted. Um, for my sins, I'm the patron of the Forest School Association. Um, and, uh, I, you know, I, I, I believe every setting should be running forest school, uh, and actually should be, should be really taking that and embedding it in the whole curriculum. But even if you're not in a position to do that, there's lots of inspiration you can get from that, um, community of practice. Um, my next slide has just got a few resources that, uh, you might want to check out. Um, I will see if I can share those actually as linkable, um, stuff in the chat, um, so that you can actually click on the links. Let's see if this works. I'm doing a, a cut and paste coming back. Um, Kate, oops, that's not what I want to do. Let's just do that. There we go. Um, I'm hoping that, well, Kate said she can share the links afterwards anyway, but there's a bunch of things you can look at, um, including that video that I shared and a wonderful long video from the Secret Garden nursery in Scotland, which is absolutely beautiful. Um, so if we pull all this together, uh, what I hope I've convinced you, uh, is the truth of this sentiment, uh, which is the kind of thing, why is this not happening? Um, there we are. Uh, the kind of thing that maybe crops up on your social media from time to time. Um, you know, it's not just a message about children and how children learn, okay? The Vygotsky in the room will spot, uh, I think the resonance with, with that, you know, um, scaffolding learning. It's also a message to all of us, um, and to, to invite us to get a little bit outside of our comfort zones when we are thinking about the work that we we're doing with children. Um, so I'm gonna pause there. I'm gonna wait for Kate, I think to reappear. Yep. I'm back. Uh, and I'm gonna see what comes up in the chat. Mm-Hmm. Um, Karen was asking, she was commenting earlier on about children with disabilities, um, children with sort of SEND. Um, what are your thoughts on that? 'cause obviously, uh, she was talking about it in terms of where you mentioned that learned helplessness and that for them, it's like another level again on top. Yeah. So I, if you wanna mention anything there. So there's a tension in my head now. There's a tension between the sort of universalist in me Mm-Hmm. Like I'm talking about all children. And actually, I mean, that is where I start and, and where I end the kind of, uh, uh, uh, the plea that I'm making for children to engage with risk and learn what it feels like to be independent capable, confident is for all children. Yes, of course, what that means is gonna be different for different children, different children of different ages, different abilities, um, and maybe different, you know, impairments and disabilities. But the basic principle I think is the same. My sense from talking to people who work closely with, um, with disabled children, uh, is that if anything, they are more overprotected and, you know, typically, and there are greater levels of anxiety. And sometimes that's not about the children, it's about the people around them. Yes. But the, again, what I would say is that means there's a greater need Yes. To be really proactive, uh, positive Mm-Hmm. And, um, and, and, you know, really create these opportunities, um, for children with disabilities and special needs because, uh, you know, often a a lot of the other adults in, in the frame are again, for very, probably very well-meaning reasons doing the opposite. Yes. Um, now that's the beginning of an answer, I think when it comes to the sort of risk benefit tool. You remember, I, I, I dwelled a little bit on that, that local factors point. Okay. So that's, this is where the local factors thing comes in. If you have a child or a group of children who, you know, have some, um, some disabilities or some impairments or some issues that, um, you know, that, that raise particular questions for them, that's the exactly the kind of local factor that you take into account. And where you might also be looking around to see what other settings are doing that work with, um, with children who are maybe have, who, who are similar in some way. And there is some great work being done with different groups of disabled children, and there's some really passionate advocates out there doing that work. So that's a chance to pull in some of their experiences and learning. Mm-Hmm. That's it. And Denise has just put a comment actually saying that she works with special schools and all children in primary, and she said that often they have like challenge outdoors more than the ordinary primary schools do. Right? Yeah. I think, well, that's good to hear Those needs. So I think that's probably the case for a lot of, a lot of those schools. So yeah, that's Really good. I mean, you know, it, it's certainly anecdotally there's, this is mm-hmm. Maybe connected, but that some of the children who thrive in a forest school type program are children who really struggle inside the classroom, you know, for whom they, you know, for whatever reasons their, their brains and bodies are just, you know, not, shall we say, you know, they just, the outdoors is a place where they learn much better. Um, and I've seen this for myself. Yeah, that's true. Um, I really liked your 17 second rule, actually second. Um, and it's something, 'cause I know with the playground that I developed after doing your talk, um, we had like the big climbing tree and we had like huge big rocks and stuff. And a lot of the staff that I worked with were very wary about letting children do things. And we had a lot of conversations about having to step back and just kind of stand and watch and just let them do it for a little while. And, and children find their own levels. They're very, very good at that. Yes. Yeah. They are just a couple of things to take that on. Um, one thing that, I think it was one of the staff who worked in that kindergarten in Toronto. Yes. She said she had a kind of worry pebble in her, her pocket. Yes. Okay. So that, you know, if she started getting a bit, uh, yes. What am I gonna do? You know, she just sort of started, you know, fiddle with the worry pebble. Yes. Uh, pebble. And that, you know, took things off a bit. The other thing about that setting and, and the principal was who was very articulate, she, she, she had to deal with some anxious parents. You know, this was a, actually quite a, a diverse community so that parents from different cultures and backgrounds, this wasn't just, you know, your stereotypical Canadian, you know, lumberjack style families that actually they don't exist anyway. Mm-Hmm. But she, the sa if you like, the sales pitch that she made, the, the, the, the opening gambit to the parents who were worried about what she was doing was this look Mm-Hmm. In our setting, we are in the business of helping our children to grow up to be responsible for people. Yes. When do you want that process to start? Do you want that process to start here and now with the kids with us? Do you want it to start in year three? Uh, do you want it to start in year six when they're about to go to secondary school? Yeah. Uh, you know, in year 11 when they're doing their GSEs Mm-Hmm. Uh, in year 13 when they're going to their first party Mm-Hmm. Uh, when they're walking down the aisle, when do you want this process to start? Right. So it's absolutely that, that journey of childhood that I talked about, but I thought that was, um, a really eloquent way. Uh, and I think one of the things that, that we need to learn, especially those, I mean, I don't actually have a lot of direct contact with parents on this topic these days, but, but obviously many people in the audience do, you know, almost get some, some scripts, um, and it language that you can own and you can feel Mm-Hmm. The, the kind of says what you want to say and the way that you want to say it. Yes. Um, and, and that was very much what I was hearing from that principal in Toronto. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Well, I know when we developed our playground, we had to have a lot of meetings with parents and there were some trickier ones, but I found your risk benefit helped a lot. And there was two parents in particular that we had to do a lot of work with, and they asked to see the risk benefit policy and we had to send that. Right. Yeah. So that was a big help for us, actually. Yeah. And interestingly, we had a very small piece of playground that was just flat concrete that hadn't been developed, and that was the only place that a child fell over and broke her arm. Yeah. The playground. We had big climbing rocks and like nothing. 'cause they were so careful on that. Yeah. I mean, one of the problems with all of this is that, is that we've got a lot of cultural Mm-Hmm. Um, sort of baggage about playgrounds. Yes. And, and, and in my book, I'll, I'll be open, I I blame Esther Ransom for some of this. Um, those of us who are old enough to remember that's life and some of the playground safety campaigns, there were some horrible playgrounds out there, by the way. But, but it's, it's created a kind of set of meanings that, that just where playgrounds are, are labeled as dangerous places. In fact, you talked to any risk manager, local authority, risk manager, where are the accidents happening in schools and, and early, early years settings? They're happening in the classroom Yes. Much more than they're happening in the playground. Yes. Um, but, you know, know that that message hasn't yet quite got home. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. And I remember somebody saying to me as well, because we had the big playground rocks that the children could climb on, and we had a play, uh, guy at the time that worked with us, and he said, he said to the parents, on every pavement outside, you've got 90 degree rocks. And he said, and they're walking down those streets every day and no one's worried about that. So Yeah. Yeah. I think it is kind of thinking those things through, isn't it? So, yeah. Yes. Um, one of the questions that came through, um, I know you touched a little bit on this, but Denise was saying, um, what about parents that who do go to lawyers to seek compensation? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And yeah, this is obviously, you know, the whole thing gets quite pointy at this point. Yeah. Um, the first thing is, and I should have had a slide that showed this, but, but mm-Hmm. Where we want to get to is where the whole of the chain of command, if you like Yeah. Is broadly speaking on side, right. So your staff, your obviously the parents, managers, owners, uh, local authorities, if they're in the mix Mm-Hmm. Um, uh, regulators. Yeah. You know, right. The way up and down the food chain. Mm-Hmm. We, we we're getting there. We we're not there, there, so, so there might, that's I think, a task. Yes. Um, and obviously one of the things that, that will then help you with is if there is an incident and a parent maybe, you know, not necessarily out of any ill will, but just as like, hang on, you know, I took my child to, to the setting in the morning and now you've rung me up and there in hospital with a broken limb. What's that about? You know, we can, I think we can understand why parents would be upset about that, but that if you've got that shared basic approach, then, um, what surely what we want to happen is, is that the episode, the incident will be assessed on its merits Mm-Hmm. And there'll be a judgment made about, actually, did we do something badly wrong here? Yeah. Or, or did we not? Were we reasonable? Mm-Hmm. And if we did something badly wrong, then, you know, people will pay out and maybe the insurers will be involved or whatever, but if we didn't, we'll fight the case. Yes. If it does get to that, um, by the way, the vast majority of those sorts, you know, when you get an ang a sort of letter from a parent solicitors, um, if you do respond robustly and, and, and you make a strong case that you are in the right, the letter disappears. Um, one of the problems is that the insurers often get pulled in, and sometimes insurers unfortunately take the view that it's better to pay out than to fight. Because on a, on a, on an episode by episode basis, that may well be the case. Yes. It's hard, obviously it's hard to tell because you don't know quite how things will pan out, but it can be expensive. Yes. By the way, not as expensive as it used to be, because one of the things that's been going on in the background, in, in terms of the law is a lot of streamlining and of, of, of, um, taking out some of the, the nastiness and the extra legal costs and, and the kind of claim farms and the no win, no fee, you know, the, the sort of perverse incentives that were around a lot of that has, has faded now. Mm-Hmm. Um, so, but even then, you might get to a point, and I've, I've done work with insurers where they'll say, you know, maybe 10 years ago we did used to do that. Yes. But we've realized that actually what that does is just fuel claims. Yes. Um, and that doesn't help anybody because it doesn't help people take a balanced approach. So, uh, the very short answer to the question, what do we do about it is, you know, be robust, be honest. If you've made a mistake, then put your hand up. If you haven't, then do your damnedest to fight your case. And you might find you'll get more support than you expect. Yes. That's good. Um, But just say, if these are really rare, this, you know, I, if we had people in the room, I maybe we could just ask, there's 50 people still attending. If you've, if you've been involved in a claim about an accident outta doors with children's play, just type the word claim in the chat, um, and we'll see how many come through. So Denise has, Sarah has, Charles has, uh, there may, so there may be four or five. Okay. It happens. Yeah. Did any of those, did any of those claims actually come to anything in terms of having to pay out or do Anything? Yeah, that'll be interesting. We won. Yeah. They're, um, great. Well done. Marmion. Yeah. Yeah. It's not nice. Yeah. It's not nice when this happens. No, it's not nice. Um, uh, oh, in fact, uh, nothing. No. So, yeah, so, okay. Um, well that's very revealing, isn't it? Um, yeah, we wish it wouldn't happen. I, I, you know, if we had a bit more time and, and, and space, it might be interesting to unpack some of the details of some of that, because they can be very revealing, but that's, I hope people who are, um, you know, are worried about this will take some comfort from it. Denise says, we will push to change our practice. That can happen. Sometimes insurers, for example, uh, can start to make demands. There was a case that we got involved with in forest school where I think it was seven or eight years ago, the insurers started saying, you can't use ropes. Oh, no, no. We're not gonna let you use ropes. If you use ropes, then you are, that's gonna be outside of the terms of your insurance. And so some of the forest school people started saying, well, what, what's that about? Why is that? And they, and, and so the insurance, oh, there was this case where somebody used a rope and a terrible accident happened. And they said, well, what was this case? Tell us about it. We, we, we haven't had any case. And then it turned out that there was no case that it was a hypothetical case that somebody in the insurance business had come up with and shared with their mates. Yes. Um, and, and then got into a tailspin about, so what then happened was that there was a reasoned, you know, respectful discussion between insurers on the one hand and the forest school. Mm-Hmm. You know, movers and shakers on the other over what good practice looks like. Um, and effectively the insurers said, okay, you know, if, if, if practitioners can show us they're following good practice, that's good enough for us. So I think that was a really revealing example of you can build consensus, you can get beyond, um, the, the, um, uh, nervous reaction of people who are outside of, you know, the, who are not, who are not on the front line of all of this. 'cause insurers are not, they're just sitting in the background, but that it does require a bit of getting outside of our comfort zones. Yeah. Right. Being robust and being brave and standing your ground. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. No, I think that's a good message. So, yeah. Um, Samara has asked, do you have any advice for accessing or improving outdoor spaces for inner city schools, especially in areas of deprivation? And would it be to approach the local council and is there any funding available? Um, okay. I don't, I can't tell you about funding. Um, yeah. I mean, there is funding available, but I'm, I'm not up on that. Yeah. Um, actually, Juliette Robertson, who you'll probably know Kate, um, if you haven't had her on on this, you should do, she Was gonna do December, but, um, you've changed the dates and she's gonna come back again later in the Year. Okay. Um, but she has a wonderful website. Um, uh, um, what's it, uh, creative Star Mm-Hmm. Uh, she's got a page on funding for outdoor learning and play. Uh, and it's regularly updated. In fact, she just did update it not that long ago. Um, but to answer the que I mean, it's a, it's, a lot of it is about the specific circumstances, the space, what spaces are nearby the children. But, but if I, if I'm gonna say two words, I'd say loose parts. Yes. Um, as one of the points, one of the bullet points I had earlier. Yeah. What, what we mean by loose parts of is, you know, stuff that kids can make stuff with. Mm-Hmm. Especially, um, you know, the grandmother's attic approach to, um, to, to sort of construction materials. So, you know, cardboard boxes, tarpaulins tires, planks, um, office equipment. Um, and there's lots of material online, um, and ideas. There's a wonderful scheme called Play pods, which runs in a lot of, of primary schools, but I think that there, there are some early settings that run them as well. So play pods are like a kind of like a shipping container full of stuff. Um, and, um, and, and honestly, I think I, I would say to any setting who's thinking about their outdoor space, um, well before you start flicking through the catalogs Mm-Hmm. Um, think about what you can do around loose parts. That kindergarten that I showed earlier from Toronto, yes. The principal realized that they, she really needed to kind of, you know, uh, yard. And so she drove around her neighborhood with a pickup truck and $500. Okay. Um, and basically bought bits of timber Okay. From various, you know, supply yards. And just from what I could tell, I, I think like she just saw stuff on the street and, and started, you know, taking it, picking up now, I mean that's, that's getting out quite a lot out of the sort of comfort zone of some of us. But I think it's, it's really inspiring to find out that money isn't necessarily the big barrier here. It's mindset and it's, um, you know, it's getting momentum behind this vision. Yes, it's true. And there's, uh, I know in London there's a lot of local scrap projects and it's probably, uh, the same across the UK where you can go pick stuff up and I know when I worked in East London, there was a local park to me, and they said, any wood that you can find in our park that we chopped down, you can come and pick it up in your car, then you can have it for free. Right. There you go. Yeah. So I know there's things out there, and I know the thing we did as well with our playground in London was, um, we put a lot of time into the plans so that we could then use those to get funding. And that was what made the difference for us. And I know there's, in London particularly, there was a lot of banks that would support if you could keep a load of the people at work, they're busy doing Little jobs with you. Yeah. Yes. Um, so that sort of, yeah. Labor if you like. Um, and volunteering also, I think some of the, um, landfill tax, so which most people in urban areas are somewhere near a landfill site. Yes. So because of the way the landfill tax works, they may well be able to apply for funding for, for schemes off the back of the landfill tax. And by the way, I think it's wonderful if you can get a decent sum of money, you can do some amazing things with your outdoor space. Um, that's, that is wonderful. And I've seen some great examples. Um, um, Rachel Keeling nursery, which you'll probably know Kate, um, but had did an amazing makeover of its outdoor space. Um, there, there are a few examples. And again, back to the risk benefit bullet points, you know, that one about precedents and comparisons. Um, you know, I'd invite people to, to find out what's, um, other settings that are nearby them have done. But I would, I would be very cautious about thinking that the answer here lies with catalog equipment. Um, in, in a, in a, in a park, there is a, there is some value, there's quite a lot of value with, with catalog equipment because you are, you know, you, you haven't got people who are able to sort of have that educator role. Everything needs to be bombproof and all the rest of it. But honestly, in, in, in an early year setting, I'm, I'm really quite doubtful that you get value for money from, um, catalog fixed equipment in an outdoor space. I think think there are other, other avenues that you can go down. Yeah, that's true. There's a, there's a wonderful playground actually near my parents in North Wales where the children were given tools and equipment and wood to make their own playground. I dunno if you've come Across, I'm wondering if that's the land in Reham. Um, Yes. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. It's legendary. Yeah. Um, it's, uh, people have written whole books. People have written whole books about the land. Um, it's an extraordinary place. Uh, just really briefly, so if there are any fans of Tim Harford, he's the, the BBC radio four. He's the guy who does more or less, which is a really wonderful, slightly nerdy program about statistics and, and numbers on Radio Four. Done a lot of stuff about the pandemic, actually. It's really good. But he wrote a book called Messy came out a couple of years ago, and the very last paragraph of messy, which is all about how important it is for kids to, you know, and, and all of us to, to, to have mess in our lives and a little bit of chaos. But, but he describes the land and how it's a bit like somebody's kind of found a field and come up to it in the middle of the night with a lorry load full of junk, dumped it over the fence and then driven off before anybody's seen them. Um, so yeah, it's an extraordinary place. Plus Maddock is the, I think the, the proper name, but, um, everybody calls it the land and it's an, it's an open access event to play, uh, space. So, so kids can come from the local neighborhood whenever they like. Um, and I, I've actually never visited myself, although I, I know my reputation and there are a few places like it in London. Yes. Nowhere has quite, I think got the magic that, that the land has. That's, I'm, I'm in XI now actually, So that's, yeah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah, that's where I'm, so it's all good. All good. Playgrounds. Um, right, we're coming up to nine o'clock. Actually, Tim Time's gone really fast tonight. Yeah. But I wanna say a massive thank you. Um, I dunno if there's any messages or anything that you'd like to leave people on tonight, Um, I, you know, I should just, uh, grab the, the webpage for no fear. So just to repeat Mm-Hmm. You can download the whole book, uh, for free as a PDF from the page that I've just circulated. Mm-Hmm. Um, so, uh, yeah. Um, and one, one things that's really nice is people are still using it, saying nice things about it, sharing it, um, uh, even though it's now 13 or 14 years, um, old, uh, may, maybe I should do a second edition. But, um, uh, I, I'd also, I know, you know, Twitter has a bad rep and, and you know, but I, I think social media is really wonderful for building connections and discovering allies and kindred spirits. And Twitter in particular, you need to, you know, have a little bit of an idea about how to use it so you don't get sucked into all the Mm-Hmm. Nonsense. But I, uh, I'm, I'm using it more and more actually for making connections, finding out new research, um, uh, discovering new projects and initiatives. So that's another thing that, that people might wanna think about. Yeah. And I, and I think also, I think there's a power in people coming together and supporting each other Precisely. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. So yeah. Lovely. Brilliant. Thank you Tim. Big thank you for doing the webinar with us and a big thank you to everyone for coming out tonight and spending their evening with us. Yes, absolutely. And I will send you Kate, the slide deck so people, uh, can, can get in touch with you or you can share that as well. Lovely. And I'll send a link to everyone who attended with all of the links that you put out tonight, so they've got those. Brilliant, lovely. Everyone, go and have an evening and thank you for coming along. Thanks everyone. Thanks. Bye.