WEBVTT - This file was automatically generated by VIMEO. Please email info@talestoolkit.com to report problems. So I am really excited about this webinar. Um, Julian actually did one of our very first webinars a long time ago now, well, a few years ago. Um, and he's back again with us tonight and with lots more to talk about, and there's lots happened in the meantime. So I'm really excited to have Julian speaking with us. Um, and, um, we've known Julian for a long time. I actually worked with Julian really closely when I was an early years coordinator, a long time ago, and Julian was the earliest lead for my borough. So it's been a long relationship. Um, but he's been a big supporter of tell's Toolkit right from the start. Um, just a little bit of information about Julian. Um, he's the head teacher of Sheringham Nursery School and Children's Center, which has recently been awarded the research school status, and I'm sure Julian will be chatting about that tonight. And he should be very, very proud. Um, he's an author of many books and a contributor to many early years books. Um, a national Leader of Education. He's co-founder of the East London Teacher School Alliance. Um, he's gonna be the keynote speaker at the Nursery World Show this year. Um, he's worked with the Department of Education Rights for Nursery World. Some, and I could go on. There's endless things that Julian, we think you're great. So I'm really excited to have you here tonight. I think you, you have the wrong person, Kate. Good. This guy sounds great. Good. They're all gonna be expecting lots of good stuff now. So I'm gonna hand over to you, Julian, in a minute. But, um, before that, what I'm gonna say is I'm gonna be taking lots of notes. Um, so if you've got any questions throughout, then just please type away in the corner down here, and then we're gonna open it up. And me and Julian are gonna put out some of your questions. So I'm gonna hand over to you now, Julian. Okay. Well, hello. It's exciting to say hello to The Gambia. Wow. Yeah. Uh, so Hello, Leslie in The Gambia. That's, uh, that's Exciting. Yeah. It's got worldwide. So, um, tonight, one of, one of the things I really want to, um, do tonight is not just talk my way through kind of a massive long PowerPoint, but actually make this as interactive as possible. Mm-Hmm. So that, um, it feels more like something we are joining in and doing together, rather than just something that is, is being kind of broadcast to you. So, Kate and I are gonna kind of stop every few slides, just maybe to have a quick chat about something or, uh, whatever. And we'd really love to hear your questions so you can type your questions in. Um, and, uh, and Kate will pick, pick them up because the more, the more interactive it is, the the better, uh, and more fun this is gonna be. Uh, okay. Now, and I'm, I'm hoping, you know, I'm not gonna press the wrong button and suddenly disappear and leave you with nothing on your screens. Um, so I'm gonna talk a bit about, uh, really, you know, what this is about why we decided to become a research school. Why did we apply for it? Why did it matter to us at sharing a nursery school? Um, and it's because I'm really passionate about this idea that we should bring research closer to earliest settings. We should be about improving children's life chances. Uh, so your feedback and thoughts and experiences will be, uh, really very much valued this evening. Uh, thank you very much for being here, everyone. Um, so you know what use is research. And I, I do quite often ask myself this question. I think we are all working harder and we're all doing more. Certainly everyone I know who's a child minder, uh, or in an early year setting or working in a school is working phenomenally hard. Um, and equally whereas I might have imagined myself, uh, becoming, say, a deputy head or a head teacher of the nursery school when I first started working in, in education, you know, that would've been my dream. What I actually do day to day now is, is kind of hardly like what that job would've been like 20 years ago. So even though it's the same job title, it's kind of completely different, different role. And, and boy is it all hard work. And I'm sure that everyone who's here tonight, uh, feels something of the same thing. In fact, the very fact that you are here tonight joining in with a webinar when you could be, uh, on Netflix or whatever, you know, is, is testament to that. I think also, you know, when I'm in schools and settings, something I often see is that we're all constantly taking on new initiatives and trying to improve practice. And there's always something going on. Like, someone's been to a conference and they've heard an inspiring speaker, or they've been to a workshop and they kind of come back really fired up. But if we're not careful, we're is trying to do more and more and more stuff. And, and do we end up just being like on a treadmill, like a hamster on a wheel just going faster and faster and faster, but not getting anywhere? That's sometimes how it feels. And that is probably the main reason we wanted to become a research school, is to find, uh, a different way. And here, here's the way I like to think of that different way. This is from Winnie the Pooh. Here's Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there really is another way if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it. And on a bad day, that's how I can sometimes feel that it's all bump, bump bump. When is the time to stop and to think and to wonder is there another way? And that's a, a, a big part of the theme, uh, of, of tonight's webinar. Um, so why research? So I think what's important about research is that we don't look to research for the definitive answers to the questions we have, but what research can do, and in particular what a research school like Sheringham can do, is help us to identify the best bets. So what is likely to be the best bet if we want to rethink our approach to helping children's communication? The research can give us a lot of insight into the sort of things we should be doing, but also some of the things we shouldn't be doing. But it does only give us best bets. It doesn't tell us the answers. And we've gotta be incredibly careful not to become consumers of research, but critical people who talk about and think about it and always think about the kids that we are working with. Um, that way we can make best use of research. Uh, and as I've said here, it guides our professional judgment, but it cannot and should not replace it. The other thing it's always worth emphasizing is that working with young children and their families is complex. That that's actually why I think it's a great job to have because it's endlessly interesting. No two days are anything like each other, but it is complex. And of the many quotes I really like from the educational research of Dylan William, this is one physics works because protons and electrons don't have good days and bad days. They behave consistently and predictably. And all of you working with young children know that that's not where your work is. Okay? What we do is really complex. It changes day by day. It very much depends on, uh, not just the general group of kids and parents that we're working with, but also what sort of a start to the day perhaps one of our two or our three year olds had. Did they have a good night's sleep and get up in a pretty good mood? Or are we picking up the pieces after a sleepless night and a fractious morning? Um, so, so you know, what we are doing is complex and our professionalism and our skills and our knowledge are really crucial. Okay, great. Glad to see the tech problems are getting sorted in the background for people too. Um, so what I'm gonna argue tonight is that one of the things we need to do is just to slow down the cycle of change. We are doing way too much and we're trying to do it too quickly. Um, so before we are thinking about making any sort of change in our work, these are the things I think we should be doing. First of all, check the best bets. What's worked in other places, what hasn't worked in other places? Um, check, check out the, the field. Um, and that will probably give you a kind of shorter list of promising approaches you might take. Um, the second thing I'd say is that anything we do must be underpinned by high quality professional development. And that what that isn't is someone, for example, going off on training and then coming back and then being expected to cascade something to a staff team, that that is not a high quality way for a group of people to learn together. Um, something that has often been noticed about cycles of, uh, change in educational and childcare establishments is that, uh, we kind of launch things with a lot of enthusiasm and excitement. We go to a training event, we bring a trainer in, everyone reads something in nursery world and feels really fired up. And that that's all great, that we have that passion at the beginning. But what we don't tend to do is before we even start planning, implementation, and evaluation, so when are people gonna have the time to implement this? When they're gonna be able to talk about it, when they're gonna be able to reflect and talk to each other? When are they gonna be able to ask questions and raise things that they're finding difficult? At what points are we gonna evaluate how things are going? Because one of the things I think it's really important to do when we launch something new is have evaluation points where we look at what's working, but also what isn't working. Yeah. Because either something's not working because there's some sort of barrier to it, so therefore we need to, uh, do some work and overcome that barrier. Or, um, it just isn't gonna work in our settings. So hey, let's stop doing it and put our effort and energy into the things that are working. So we tend to plan the, the, the start of things really well. But what we don't tend to be so good at is what are we gonna be doing in January? How are we gonna be checking, it's all working out. How are we gonna review this in April and stop doing some things? How are we gonna get everyone together and redouble our efforts? Um, so I think all of those things, um, are, are, are really important. Um, and I'm just gonna do, take one quick look about professional development and then have a pause for, um, some questions and some reflection here. So this is from the field, uh, literature review, which, uh, em, Raj and colleagues undertook, um, in 2018. And I think this is an incredibly useful summary of what effective professional development, uh, what what its features should be. And what I'm gonna say is that the large majority of professional development out there is well short of this level. A lot of it is very fatty, it's very gimmicky. It appeals to people, uh, and offers what I sometimes call edutainment. So it offers a great workshop or conference or something that gets everyone fired up, but it's not high quality professional development. So here's what E Zero is saying about what high quality looks like. Uh, it's about how high quality interactions extend children's development. It's about the relevance of self-regulation to children's educational success. The links between early language development and later literacy. It's about mathematical and scientific concept development in the early years. It's about how we use observation assessment and planning to improve, to improve quality. It tells us about the importance of early home learning and connections across early childhood education and care settings in the home and learning environment and the relevance of leadership for learning for children's development and ways to improve it. So I think if you're looking at PD professional development and you're not seeing it hit some of those bullet points, I would say that's a good moment to say this. This actually, this isn't what I'm looking for. This isn't, uh, this isn't for me. So I'm just gonna hand over now as I said, just to have a little pause and let Kate or other people come in here. Mm-Hmm. Yep. Um, there's some questions coming through Julian. Yeah. Um, so Debbie has said, how do we know what best practice is? I want to do the best for our children. Quality assurance is great, but if nurseries maybe work closer together. Yeah. So there's a lot of really great thoughts in there to unpick Mm-Hmm. Um, I often tend to prefer to use the, uh, phrase best practices rather than best practice because I think there are different practices that work in different places. And I think sometimes if we talk about best practice, um, to, in too narrower way, um, it oversimplifies, um, the, the, the work we're doing. So I think it's a great question, Debbie. How do we know what it is? The, the simple answer to that is, um, because you see your kids are really thriving and making good progress. Uh, and it works for you, it works for your setting, it works for your children. Yeah. It's, but go on. Uh, yeah, no, I was just gonna say that's completely right. 'cause every setting has got very different children, very different families. And like what you're saying, like there isn't gonna be one thing that fits everybody is there. That's that's exactly right. But I also think that once you, um, feel that you've got systems running well and it's working well for the kids in your setting, that's the moment to look a bit further afield and think, okay, what are best practices out there? 'cause we've developed this as far as we can Mm-Hmm. Uh, within our setting and it's working. What would leading edge practice look like? Mm-Hmm. And one of the really powerful things zero says, is never allow anything to be a ceiling for your professional development. Yeah. So you may get an outstanding from Ted or a good from Ted, you may do really well in someone's QA scheme. Mm-Hmm. But that doesn't mean that the job is done and everything is sorted. Mm-Hmm. There's always further to to go. Yeah. And I always think that one of the definitions of a great earliest team, um, is that it knows it needs to know more Yes. And be better. Um, so again, Debbie's question is a good one. Quality assurance is great and it is great, but it also can be limiting. Yes. It, what it should do is both prompt us to reflect and think, uh, and, and, and check the basic quality of our processes. Mm-Hmm. But it should also encourage us then to go beyond the quality level in that scheme. Uh, yes. And, and, and to look for leading edge practice. Um, I think there are some really good tools to check your process quality out there. So we use, uh, it is three and ECAs three mm-Hmm. A great deal at sharing them. Yeah. Uh, you can Google them. Um, we use something called the inclusive classroom profile to check how well we're working with kids with SEMD. So those kind of process quality tools are really, really, uh, important. Um, and then the final point, which Debbie makes really well, there is Yeah. Nurseries should work closer together. Of course we should. Yeah. So in, in our bit of Newham in Manor Park, we all banded together with the support of funding from the Education Endowment Foundation and launched a year long program to support, uh, children's early communication. Now, any one of us as individual settings or child minders couldn't have afforded the amount of professional development reflection Yes. Thinking time coaching work with external academics. But because we all banded together, 'cause there was like nearly 20 of us Yes. We could have a fantastic, um, quality of professional development running over a whole year. Yes. None of us could have done that on our own. Yes. So I, I completely agree with what Debbie's, uh, Debbie's saying. So I think connect, uh, be ambitious and use professional reflection as some of the key key messages for me now. Okay. Cool. Um, I've got a question from Leslie. Yeah. She said, how can we benefit the widest community? Are we connected sufficiently well in England at the moment? Yeah. So, um, I think that we could do a lot more to be more connected, but I also really understand why we are not, because in a lot of settings, and if you're a child minder particularly Yeah. Uh, you work really long hours. Yeah. Um, you also probably have other caring responsibilities in your life. Maybe your own kids, maybe your parents, maybe both. And it can be very, very difficult to find that time for professional learning and reflection. Yes. And one of, you know, very high up on my wishlist for improved quality in early years would be a lot more support for practitioner professional development. Yes. But using the sort of, um, lens that is on our slide at the moment. Not, not the, not the gimmicky stuff, not the short term stuff. Yes. The, the sort of professional development that will really support, uh, practitioners and settings, uh, in, in, in the long term. Yes. Um, so I would say probably in my ideal world, I would have probably quite a lot less courses and conferences and professional development going on. But what I would have going on would be longer duration, um, and higher and higher quality. Yes. Um, and it's not just because I'm your guest tonight that I'm saying this case, but I think the fact that Tales toolkit provides that year round support Mm-Hmm. The online training, the model that all the staff have got to train in this, not just one or two enthusiasts. That's, I think one, one of the reasons this is proving to be such a, uh, a successful, um, so successful. Um, okay. And, and I'm seeing some really important comments coming through. Yes. We're gonna have to move on in a moment, but, Mm-Hmm. Um, so it's, Tracy's asked about inclusive setting profile. It's inclusive. It's if you Google inclusive classroom profile Mm-Hmm. Uh, you'll find some info on that online. And our research school is running a free seminar in February on that. So if you go to East London Research School Mm-Hmm. Again, just, just search online for East London Research School, you can come to a free, uh, introduction to the inclusive classroom profile. Um, and, and you are very welcome to come along to that Tracy or anyone else who can make it, if you can't make it to Stratford and East London. There is quite a bit of information online about the ICP. Cool. And Honey has said here that child minders often feel disconnected. Mm-Hmm. Um, and I agree. Uh, now of course, honey is, uh, someone I know and is, is, uh, a, a, a fantastic childminder who shows amazing, um, commitment both to the kids and to our own professional development and learning. But it is very, very difficult. And I would again, uh, up there in my kind of top five or top 10 would be that just like everyone else, child minders would get those paid days Mm-Hmm. Three to five paid days every year for their professional development. Yeah. And that parents would really understand that just like you might rock up to m and s one morning and see on the door that it's not opening till 10:00 AM that day. Mm-Hmm. Because of staff training, that if we want quality, then we have to support professional learning and professional development. Mm-Hmm. Um, and I'd really like to see child minders have a lot more, uh, support than they get at the moment. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Do you want, okay, so, so I'm gonna move us, uh, I'm gonna move us on now. Yep. Um, and I think that sometimes something that can be quite difficult in the early years is, is also something that is great about the early years. And that's the role of tradition in our sector. And the person that really prompted me to have this thought was, uh, ya de Beal recently at the new early years conference. Um, so I think part of what's great about the early years comes from our roots, uh, and from our, from our traditions. Um, so there's some photos there of Susan Isaacs who I still read Susan Isaacs and, and find her a kind of inspiring, um, educator, uh, and thinker, Margaret McMillan, uh, Montessori, all really, really important, um, people. But, um, I think sometimes the tradition as Jan was arguing, and I agree with him, is problematic because I think we can end up rather, in a rather unthinking way, following traditional practices or approaches because it's what we learned when we were training, or because they carry with them the weight of tradition. And actually we should be stopping and thinking it's 2020. Is this still the best approach to helping children's learning? So Susan Isaacs, for example, who I admire hugely, but she didn't have at her fingertips all of the research we have now about how important children's early language development is to their thinking. So sh so that aspect of practice, um, is, is, is is not as strong in her writing as it needs to be. Um, one, one of the ways I sometimes put this is, um, you know, think, think, think about Florence Nightingale. Now, Florence Nightingale is an incredible person, groundbreaking, not just in terms of, uh, inventing the modern idea of nursing, but also in her understanding of data analysis. You know, she's the inventor of the pie chart. You know, what a woman, but would you like to be on the Florence Nightingale ward in 2020? No, you wouldn't, because she didn't accept that germs caused diseases. And I think that it is important for all of us in early years not to get, um, over influenced by tradition or by things that we saw when we were training and that we just replicate. And I would say, like, always ask yourself the question why, you know, why water play? Why sand play? Why the dressing up corner? Always ask yourself those questions. Um, and don't just kind of follow through, uh, what what we've always learned and what we've always, uh, what we've always done. And that makes me come onto my next point, which is that, um, some things aren't going so well in early years at the moment. You know, we, you just have to look around and see that a lot of young children aren't developing as well as we'd like them to think about some of the kids you see every day and think about maybe their physical development and health or their communication, and consider how damaging, uh, that can be to those children. Um, and of course there are many complex factors coming into play here, but one of the areas that we can influence is early education and childcare. And despite all of the effort that a lot of us have made and all of the passion we put into this, we haven't yet done enough to make sure that every child gets a good start to their education. The gap between disadvantaged kids and others by the end of the EYFS hasn't moved for years. So we haven't got any better at this. Uh, I think it's in the last six years, many factors come into play there. But one of them is, uh, what we do in early years to support children's early learning and development. Um, so you can see there's the E-Y-F-S-P outcomes. It's, it's, it's, it's hardly moving. That gap between disadvantaged children and the rest is something that we as a system seem to be stuck on at the moment. Um, and, um, it's been estimated that, uh, the current trend, it'll take around 50 years for the disadvantage gap to close by the time kids take their GCSEs. Um, you know, so, so I won't be around to see that day if it ever comes. Uh, if we don't do better than we are doing at the moment, why does this particularly matter? So let's think about literacy. So the OECD, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a a few, I was thinking I might forget one of those letters, uh, comments around 15% of the adult population can't fully understand the instructions on a bottle of aspirin and the OECD reports that these literacy problems are especially serious in England, where younger adults perform no better than older ones, although there is a bit of change happening in that space at the moment. But doesn't that feel like a very minimal thing for kids to have achieved by the time they've had all those years of compulsory education, that they should be able to get the hang of something as basic as the safety instructions on the back of a bottle of aspirin? Um, we know that, um, poor skills in early communication, difficulties in your social emotional development, uh, can cause long-term and adverse effects for kids as they go, uh, as they go through school. It's really, really important and it's so important for us to remember that what we do is really important. So, um, as Ted Mellish and others reported in, in the, the Care impact review with regard to provision for three years onwards, disadvantaged children benefit, particularly from high quality preschool provision. So that's why the best bets that I was talking about earlier and high quality professional development really matters with reference to everything I've just been talking about, because it's disadvantaged kids who will benefit the most when we get all of this. Right. So, in a moment, I'm gonna look a bit more closely at a couple of important areas, but I'm gonna again pause just for Kate to bring in a few questions and to, to make a few comments here. Mm-Hmm. Um, Leslie was asking Julian, um, is the East London Research School looking at ACEs or doing anything with the ACE scores? Okay. So at first childhood experiences, uh, ACEs, uh, are, uh, really an important thing for us to think about. Uh, the research is showing that ACEs are, uh, experiences that kids can have both in their early years and later in their childhood. Yeah. So it is quite important that we think about this as something that covers the, the whole age phase of early years, primary and secondary, and fe um, not, not just early years education. Um, so for, for, for us, uh, at the moment, the, the hold we tend to have on that is just, is more to think that lots of kids we come into contact with have had some sort of difficult early experience. Um, sometimes we know about it. Yes. Sometimes we don't. What the evidence tells us is that, um, how we respond to that is really important. And I'm just gonna kind of pick up two, uh, of many things I could say about that. Mm-Hmm. One is that, um, where children have what's sometimes called high levels of reactivity. Yeah. So a kid who's had difficult early experiences is exactly the sort of kid that if something goes wrong, they're highly reactive. Mm-Hmm. So if the jigsaw isn't going their way, they might kind of throw it up in the air or stamp on it, or hit hit somebody because they're feeling so mad about it. Uh, that that sort of thing might well happen. Or if you, uh, ask them to do something that they don't immediately want to do, they might respond in a very angry way to an earliest practitioner. So those highly reactive children are very difficult to work with, but we know that if we respond to those kids in kind Mm-Hmm. So in other words, if we respond angrily and harshly Yes. Um, it makes things much worse for them. Yes. But we also know, and this is the exciting bit, that if we respond calmly and we're sympathetic whilst maintaining firm boundaries and we are consistent. Yes. And that if the routines of our settings are very clear and sensible and understood by the children, that you can actually give kids who've had those difficult early experiences, a a different sort of pathway. And over time, one of the reasons that early education is so important for children who've not had the best early experiences is it gives them another road to follow. Um, yes. And, and that can be really life changing for those kids, whereas if we don't get it right, we reinforce Mm-Hmm. The difficulties they, they had. Yes. So, harsh responses to highly reactive children make things much worse. Yes. On the other hand, a well implemented key person approach calm mm-Hmm. Empathetic. Yes. Uh, supportive, good routines, sensible boundaries. A actually that makes a really big positive difference for children. Yes. Um, and people might also be interested to know that in, um, the, uh, review of Tools of the Mind, which is an American program, uh, where there's a very strong focus on play-based learning and supporting children's emotional development. Mm-Hmm. A key component of tools of the mind is what we in England might call supervision or what we at showing them call work discussion where a trained, uh, in our case, a trained, uh, child and adolescent mental health specialist with a psychoanalytic background and an expertise in naught fives, works with our staff team regularly. Yes. Uh, to create a reflective space to talk about, uh, some of the emotional experiences we have when we're working with the children. And to think more about the children's, um, emotional development and how we can support that. So that's the, that's the, the, the first thing I would say. Mm-Hmm. The second thing I would say is that, um, really interesting research from UCL Institute of Education through their supporting spoken language in classrooms project shows that one of the biggest ways to make a difference to young children's emotional wellbeing is to improve their early communication. Yes. So, rather than maybe have a whole load of interventions around PSED Mm-Hmm. What we should really be doing is at a whole school, whole nursery as child minders throughout the day, doing everything we can to help children's early communication. Because if children can talk about how they're feeling Mm-Hmm. And can deal with the ups and downs of life through language and through negotiation Yes. That actually makes them emotionally, uh, healthier. Yes. They're much less likely to become stressed and anxious as they get older. Mm-Hmm. And it also then that means that schools, instead of being faced with a lot of kids who look like they need, um, support, uh, for their emotional development, will see that the large majority of kids are helped by sound. Earliest practice well implemented key person approach. Yeah. Strong focus on communication all the way through the school, not just in early years. Key stage one, key stage two. And then that makes it easier for the school to realize, which are those small numbers of children who are going to need that intensive help. From cams Yes. From, from from other agencies. Um, so play, yes. Supporting children's only communication. Mm-Hmm. Personal approach, work discussion for staff. These, these are kind of all really important things. Um, yes. In, in, in my opinion. Yes. That's good. Yeah. And it fits in, 'cause when we started tell's toolkit, a lot of people would say to us, what do you impact? And, uh, there was a lot of stuff in terms of literacy and language and social skills, but really everything that we did was about those interactions and giving children a voice and having that kind of back and forth conversation and time to do that. And that impacts everything. Yeah. And yeah, that's where all the difference is made, isn't it? Yeah. And I think that the child who is communicating confidently, making up stories, maybe working stuff out through, uh, small world play, uh, is a child who's very likely to have sound emotional development and to develop the sort of resilience Yes. That will help them through, uh, any difficult experiences that, that, that they've had earlier. Yes. So, for the large majority of kids, the best thing we can do for them is do what we do really well. Yes. Not try and wear every single hat out there. Yes. So not try to be early as educator One minute Yes. Psychologist the next minute Yeah. Et cetera, et cetera. Actually, uh, the best thing we can do Yeah. Is, is be great key people to children. Yes. Support their play, support their communication, have sensible routines and boundaries. Yes. Uh, that, that, that, that is a really, really good environment for young children who've had difficult early experiences. Yes. Um, and it also helps us to see the small number of kids Mm-Hmm. For whom that actually isn't, isn't enough. Yes, that's true. Um, Debbie's got a question here. Yeah. Do you think the knowledge and experience that we offer children become crucial? Do you, Yeah. Um, absolutely. So, um, I think that, um, yeah, so that's such a big question to ask, and I'm kind of gonna try and think of a sensible way to answer it without, without kind of waffling too much. Mm-Hmm. Um, Mm-Hmm. So I do, I do think that, um, knowledge is really important for young children because, uh, once you know some things, it's a lot easier to learn more things. Mm-Hmm. Um, so a lot of you, for example, might have that image of the, um, the kid who's really into dinosaurs. So we know that if you know three dinosaurs as a kid Mm-Hmm. You can know the names of 10 and 20 and 30 quite easily. Yes. And, and then, you know, you get this brilliant effect where this kind of 4-year-old is, you know, giving you chapter and verse about pterodactyls or something, which is, which is, you know, what it's all about, uh, for me. So I think that sometimes we underestimate the importance of, um, helping children know the names of more things and know more about stuff. Mm-Hmm. Because we focus more on sort of what, what they're choosing to do, how, how long they do it for, uh, tho those sorts of things. So characteristics of effective teaching and learning, I think is a really important part of the UFS. Yes. But it has to go hand in hand with actually learning something. Mm-Hmm. It can't just be this sense that children direct that, uh, all themselves. So, again, for me, one of the things that's really good about Tale's toolkit is that it gives you that scaffolding. Mm-Hmm. So if you are not the sort of child who is used to making up and telling stories through small world play or whatever, it gives you the kind of footholds to be able to do that, to understand the sort of ways that stories are put together. And that's an important thing for, for children to know. Yeah. But I think what can be really disappointing is that, um, when you are in an early years setting or you're in a school and, um, you see for example, that there's hardly any time given to conversation between children and adults. Everyone is super busy all of the time. Yeah. Some children might go through a whole session, not have a conversation with an adult at all, and those children are really missing out on important stuff. They might be playing, they might be happy, they might be busy. Mm-Hmm. But conversation extended turn, taking conversation is really important for those children. And to go back to sort of the theme from earlier, what I would then say is that those kids, they are not gonna talk to anyone unless they feel really well loved and cherished and cared for. So unless you've got your key person approach Right. And all of your personal social emotional development Right. You're not gonna get your communication right. Because no kid is gonna say something unless they think that the adult is interested in them Yes. As an individual. Um, so when, when early years works really well, it's because everything holds together, uh, in, in that sort of, uh, in that sort of way. Okay. So I've got a very kind of tricky question there is remembering crucial, but missing from characteristics of effective teaching and learning. Um, and I'd have to go back and read it to, to answer that very good question. But I would say in terms of what's at our fingertips, we probably don't think about it as as much as, as much as we might do. But I'd encourage everyone to think of remembering very broadly. So if you are a 3-year-old who can get on a trike balance on that seat pedal and steer and go round obstacles, that's because you've remembered a lot of stuff you've laid down that's schema for Mm-Hmm. Balance, ride steer, and it's in your long term memory, and you can just do it automatically. Yes. So we mustn't think of remembering in a narrow way. The, you, you know, children show us, uh, that, that they've laid down things, uh, in their long term memory in lots and lots of different ways. It's not all about vocabulary and skill and skills in the more obvious, uh, ways that we might think about. Mm-Hmm. Yep. Um, and Debbie's saying there, once strong relationships have been established, we use serve, return recall and question and sustain shared thinking a lot. Yeah. We, which, which, which, which sounds fantastic. Yes. Um, but sadly too many kids are in, uh, provision where that's not the case. Yes. And, uh, I'm gonna talk about that in a moment, actually. Let's, let's look at some specifics here. Yeah. So, um, one of the main things that the Research School Network offers is support with implementation when it comes to these guidance reports from the Education Endowment Foundation. And I thought I'd used the last bit of tonight to just pick out a few things from two recent ones. One is preparing for literacy, uh, and the other is the report on early maths, which is, uh, just being released, um, this week, end of last week. So, uh, these, if you go on the Education Endowment Foundation's website, you will find lots of information, uh, about the best bets. So preferring for literacy tells us a lot about what the highest quality research is saying about children's early literacy. Uh, what research schools do is connect earliest practitioners, settings, child minders schools together to support with the implementation, because we all know that if someone could just publish a report and that would sort it out, you know, that person would now be a kind of billionaire, wouldn't they? And we wouldn't have half the problems we've got. So we know it's one thing to know about the research and the evidence, but it's quite a different thing, um, to be able to put that into practice. And that's what research schools are here for. And that's what we really want to do, uh, as a research school, is to help connect people, create that community of learners, um, so that we all get smarter at implementing, uh, the, the, the research and evidence. So, uh, preparing for literacy, um, begins with the kind of seven, top 10, uh, things that we should all be doing to support children's early literacy, uh, in the EYFS. Um, so you, you get a really useful summary there, and I'm just gonna zero in, uh, on number one, which is prioritize the development of communication, uh, and language. And I've already sort of touched on some of these things before, but let's, let's just think a bit about what early years provision might look like if we prioritize the development of communication and language. Um, so the eef summarizes the evidence here is telling us that language provides the foundation of thinking and learning and should be prioritized. So I think we quite commonly see that go a little bit wrong, uh, in, in two different ways. The first way is that sometimes as kids move into reception, the focus on some aspects of early literacy, like early reading and early writing, drowns out the focus that's needed on language and communication. You have to have them hand in hand because unless children through their reception year and through key stage one are getting a lot of support with their spoken language, with their understanding funding, they're gonna hit a brick wall when it comes to their early reading and writing. And you've seen those children who, uh, are asked to write something, but actually in their com, in their spoken language, they struggle even to think of something to say, okay, so how are we expecting them to write interesting things if they're not yet saying them or thinking them? So we must prioritize, uh, communication for children for that reason. I'm not saying that we should not introduce any early literacy until children have reached a certain level of communication. I am saying that those two things should go hand in hand. And where you see schools, um, having put a lot more thought and planning into some aspects of early literacy, but not this aspect, I think they've gone wrong. And I think they're missing something, um, that is, uh, really, uh, very important for them to think about. Um, we know that, uh, children really benefit from what is called dialogic reading or shared reading. So that's where instead of kids being largely expected to sit and be good and listen to stories, they have regular opportunities, often one-to-one or in small groups to look at a picture book and talk about what's going on and raise their questions, link what they see to their own ideas. And that's where a lot of vocabulary learning can happen for young children. So it's really important that we are not just sort of performing picture books to children aged 2, 3, 4, 5, but we're actually in small groups with them, and we are talking about the story and the book, uh, and we're encouraging children to share their, their, their ideas, um, to, so there's some really important messages, um, in there. Um, and there's, there's, there's an interesting in, uh, piece of work that's being done by, uh, Nuffield at the moment around, uh, talking, talking time. And that's about giving children, uh, making sure that children regularly, I at least twice a week, get a short amount of time when they're in a small group and they're just in conversation around a picture book or a set of pictures. And I really think that, uh, if in a kind of free flow play-based early years environment, you can't be confident that children are getting at least 20 minutes of conversation with an adult around a book or around something of interest. You have to really look and review what you are doing. And I really think if you're in a reception class and you've got really well planned phonics teaching, but you haven't got really well planned approaches to supporting children's communication and language, uh, again, you are, you are missing something that's, uh, that's really important. But what I'm not saying is that we should kind of wait until all of that is established. Before we start on early literacy, uh, experiences with children, I'm just saying that we must make sure that that the, that these things go hand in hand, um, and together, um, I'm just gonna quickly say a couple of things about, uh, early maths as well. Uh, and then we'll, we'll have a, a block of time at the end, uh, to talk. So here are the five key recommendations of the EF report, uh, around early maths, which you can, uh, search out online and have a look at. And I'm just gonna zero in, uh, on this one here, which is about dedicate time for children to learn mathematics and integrate mathematics, um, throughout the day. So a lot of us, and absolutely me included for a long time, I think worked on the assumption that if we had a high quality, uh, environment with lots of rich mathematical opportunities for children, uh, well-trained practitioners, that we'd be picking up on children's mathematical thinking and extending their learning all of the time. That that's somewhat true, but not as true as I would've once, uh, believed. And I'm really interested in this, um, piece of research, uh, by Jolene Dal, which is, uh, published, uh, with her co-writer Sue Gifford in 2015. And she talks about how she investigated this in her nursery class. She says, during a four day week, we flooded our environment with activities that could potentially lend themselves to number and calculating ideas in order to identify when, where, and how often children engaged with friends and mathematical ideas. We agreed to keep an event sample of mathematical incidents both inside the classroom and outside in our garden area. Despite this huge input, we noted a total of just 57 incidents relating to the mathematics area of the EYFS 37 of which held possible reference to number and calculation ideas. These represented just 17 children out of the 52 in the class. This activity highlighted how few incidents took place, how inconsistent they were between children, and how fleeting mathematical involvement was without adult intervention. Um, Sue Gifford, um, comments, uh, about exactly that point in, in another piece where she says, children were unlikely to learn about number through independent play, a laissez fair approach to children learning maths in the secret garden of play doesn't work. Opportunities may be there, but children will not necessarily take advantage of them. And we are gonna put a blog out, um, later this week or maybe early next week, um, about this from our research school and talk a bit about what we've learned about early maths at sharing them. But it's definitely telling us that we need to have explicit structures and points in the day when children are focused on mathematical learning, as well as lots of opportunities through play. And we've got to sometimes be really clever about how we funnel the play-based provision so that it's mathematical. So that, just to give you a really basic example, in our graphics areas, we only have now like five pens, five colored pencils, five rulers. Um, and there's a massive emphasis at tidying uptime on finding the, the five and counting them and getting it right and knowing when you've finished. So instead of just having a kind of random pot, it's five. And children know when they've finished that tidying up task because they've counted the five pens and put them, um, in the pot. So you can do kind of clever structuring of your basic routines, snack time, tidying up time arrivals, parking bikes, all of those sorts of things you can really structure to focus on mathematical learning. But what you can't do, and where I've gone wrong, is to assume that just because you have the resources and just because staff are really high quality, that the mathematical learning is going to happen. That's not true. That's not how things are looking. Okay. So I'm gonna have another, uh, pause now and let Kate, Kate come in. Oh, it's, um, so I've got a question here, Julian from Leslie, and she said, does the research school have a role in influencing parents in supporting their children's early literacy and maths? Um, well, I don't, I guess like everyone has a role in influencing that and, and, and, and I guess we would like to play our part as much as possible. So, um, I'd say a few things about, uh, parents that to me are really important. Mm-Hmm. The first one is that we've, we've, we've kind of got to really think about two things at the same time when we are thinking about, say, families, uh, disadvantaged children, which is, on the one hand we've gotta have that big picture that our system doesn't work well for disadvantaged kids and families. But we've also gotta remember that under that headline, every family and every child is unique Mm-Hmm. They bring their own important skills and competencies and joy into, into our world, and we have to really treasure them and value them and build on that. And we've gotta be very careful that we don't just talk about deficits and what's, what's missing. Yes. Um, something I learned that was really important from um, Kathy Nut Brown in Sheffield many years ago was, uh, when I was kind of slightly cross because a parent had come to me and said, you know, you don't teach a BC here, and I've taught my daughter all the A, b, C at home and you haven't done anything for it. And, and in a slightly kind of idiotic way, I kind of said, well, you know, that isn't actually how children learn their early liter, you know, learn the kind of early stages of literacy. Um, and what, what Kathy taught me, and she was very nice about this, so I didn't cry on the spot, I just Kind of thought about it for a long time, was that, um, that that's kind of a bit of an abuse of my power as an educator over the parent. Yes. And what would've been much more helpful would've been to say to that parent, you know, what's great that you are teaching your child the alphabet song? Mm-Hmm. So it's fantastic that you sit down and show your child how to write letters. That's really good. Yes. Here's a few other things that you could be doing Yes. That will now help them learn some of the other things they need to do Yes. To become a writer. Yes. And I've always tried to keep that as my rule of thumb, which is to value what families do, but then maybe to suggest some things, uh, that will help them Mm-Hmm. Take take their child further Yes. To explain why we do what we do in early years, rather than just assume that all families are gonna be on board with play-based learning. Mm-Hmm. And, and really to learn from families, um, as much as we've got things to teach them as early as educators. Yeah. They've got things to teach us about their kids. Yes. And it's only gonna work if it's a two way street like that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, that's a really good piece of advice. 'cause I think for parents, a lot of it's about knowledge and confidence and at all costs. You don't wanna knock their confidence. So that, I think, and you can very, very easily do that. 'cause a lot of parents are quite scared of school and see it very differently to us. Yeah. And, and, um, not all parents had a brilliant experience of being at school themselves. No. So we have to be really the ambassadors for education and to say, learning can be great for you, for your child. Yes. And you can only do that if you establish the rapport, rapport with the parent. Mm-Hmm. Uh, and that involves a lot of listening. Yes. And a, and a and a lot of understanding. And I think that's why Kathy nut brand's suggestion of always saying, yeah, that's really great. And also think about something else Yes. Uh, is really powerful. Yes. That's it. Yeah. Debbie's saying, knowing the positives of individual culture capital is vital and giving them the knowledge too. So Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. And um, some of that, uh, is you, you, you know, when, when we look at our core books at Sheringham, for example, you know, one of them is Lima's Red Hot Chili. Yes. Now our kids who come largely from Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian Heritage families, they know far more than me about what it's like to eat something that's too hot. Yes. And their response to that story has taught me a lot about Yeah. How a small child experiences, uh, that type of, that type of cooking. So we need to know about what cultural capital the kids are coming in with. Yes. But we also have a responsibility that if they aren't from families that are confident to go to the park or take a bus ride or go to the museum that's free Yes. Uh, via the tube that's free for under fives, that's something we can really offer those families, um, and, and give those children those wider experiences. Yes. Um, that, that often really set their learning on fire, those firsthand experiences. Yeah, that's true. Um, I was gonna to ask you, Julian, because you are actually, this kind of leads in a little bit. You're gonna be one of our schools that works with us on developing our parent training. Yeah. Which is, um, and you've been supporting us right from the start, and I think you've talked a little bit about the research, but I think what you do really well in your school is that you have a balance of trying new things and kind of looking for new things out there in the market, but also then going with, well-known research and well kind of tried out methods too. Like how do you have those balances and what's your recommendations for other schools with that? Yeah. I think I just think do, don't, don't do as much, but, but try and do what you do as well as you can. Mm-Hmm. And, and also we, we get this wrong and I certainly get it wrong all of the time, so I'm always over emphasizing how much we can get through and how fast we can develop. Yes. And the risk then is that you don't get people as confident or as Sure. Or as able to raise questions or whatever. So I think that's really important. Um, and um, you know, a long time ago, I think I read something about how the development of any organization is as fast Mm-Hmm. As the slowest person in the organization. Yes. You don't want a load of hairs running ahead doing all these innovative and exciting things and, and other people not being involved. And again, we do get that wrong all of the time, but we try at least to be conscious of it and think about how we can keep our whole team together. And I'm honest, this is honestly true. Every single day something will happen at Sheringham and I'll think, gosh, that practitioner is just so insightful. Yes. Or handles that so much better than I ever could or Yes. You know, has has something at their fingertips that I wish I had. So the staff teams bring an enormous richness. They all, they always do. Yes. Yes. Um, but we have to hold that alongside the fact that many of our staff didn't get the initial training that was of the quality it should have been. Mm-Hmm. And they've not, they've probably been let down, if they got a level three, they probably didn't get what they should have had from their college. Yes. So we're always trying to, uh, recognize that, uh, you know, we should be providing stuff to help or, you know, our whole team. Yes. Uh, keep up and, and stay interested, um, yes. In in what's happening in the field. Yeah. Um, I've got to say, and I've told this to lots of people, but I was, I was lucky enough to be in Julian's school the day when he got the offset call and um, and he came into the classroom and I've never seen anything like it. Julian, all the other schools are like, right, we've got the school open till midnight, we're all having pizza. But Julian came in and you were just very calm and you said, everybody go home on time and just, you know, take a deep breath and come back in tomorrow and show us your best self and we'll be great. We've got this, it's fine. And I think a lot of that comes from the fact that you do back things at research and that you do have all this knowledge that comes behind all of the practice that you put into place in your school. And I think I, I'm, I think your school's great Julian, so I dunno, I'm, I'm gonna hand over now, but I think it leads in really nicely to the next part. 'cause there's lots of people asking how they engage with the research school. Great. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm quite honestly really moved by you saying that, Kate. Mm-Hmm. So, thank, thank you. And, um, Yeah, it's true. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm really touched that you feel that Mm-Hmm. About, about working with us. Yeah. Um, okay. So, um, research schools. So just, just search online for East London Research School. Um, you can sign up for our newsletter. So we do a monthly newsletter. Um, we also blog about stuff. Well, we will blog about stuff. 'cause you see, we're a new research school, so we're still getting kind of this, but, um, Fliss James, who's one of our specialist leaders of education and I are kind of working together on a, on a blog about the early maths report at the moment. Mm-Hmm. So we really want the, uh, research school to become a hub for lots and lots of, uh, stuff that's really interesting. Um, we are covering the full spectrum of education from early years through to secondary, so that's also exciting. But we know that one of our first areas of expertise is early years and we want people, uh, to join in because it's very early days for our research school. And the research school is only what it becomes by people joining in and making it. It's not something that I can do or that we can push out there or that we can broadcast. It's about a community of people joining in together. Together. Mm-Hmm. And learning together and doing something together. So, um, we'd love it if you searched online for us. Sign up to our newsletter, follow us on Twitter, check out our blog on Early Years Maths. As I said, it is very early days for our research school. We're just getting going, so this is a great time to join it and, and to drive it forward. Um, you can join in with lots of our activities and as you get more in the swing of working with the Research School Network, the, uh, education Endowment Foundation offers both the opportunity for you to apply to be a research school in your own right. Or to be an associate research school. So for people that would like to see that sort of golden sight, uh, there it is. So that's how it was for us a few years ago. We thought we'd really like, uh, to do this. Um, so we'd love you to join everyone out there. Follow us. Mm-Hmm. Take part, shape it all. Mm-Hmm. Um, get involved in what we're doing. Um, and, um, you know, one day become an associate research school or a research school in your own Right. Yeah. That's good. And I think you've answered the question there about how do you become a research school so it's all covered. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. And, um, Tracy? Yep. 10 pencils and pens have a go at. Have a go at what, what happens if you go down to five. I think it's, uh, it's kind of interesting doing that piece of work to, uh, really make number real for children. Mm-Hmm. Yep. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of put an into it there and let everybody go off and have an evening. So just want to say a thank you to Julian for talking with us tonight and giving up his time. Um, and also a massive thank you for all of you that have come out and spent the evening chatting with us as well. Yeah, Absolutely. A second that. Thank you so much Kate and everyone. Yeah, no, lovely, lovely to chat with you. Okay. Have a good evening. Everyone. Have a good.