WEBVTT - This file was automatically generated by VIMEO. Please email info@talestoolkit.com to report problems. Okay, so we're live. So, um, if anyone can hear you, can we just chat and say, um, hello. Send us a little message so that we know that you've got in. Thanks. Send us, Sarah was there. She's typing. Can you see at the bottom? Sarah? Hello? Hello, Sarah? Hi, Sarah. Can you see the chat? Yeah, there we are. There's Sarah. So we're in, we're, we're live. Um, so I'm talking tonight from, yeah. Um, I'm talking tonight from Dubai. So, um, my sound might be a little bit dodgy tonight in my chair. So what I'm gonna do in a minute is I'm gonna kick off so that you get the best from Nancy and Helen. You get the best sound and picture from them. Um, but yeah, just before I do, I want to do a little bit of an introduction. Um, so we've got Helen Moyer tonight and Nancy Stewart speaking, and I'm really excited. I can't speak highly enough about these ladies. And a little while back at a conference, I pestered them and asked them to do a webinar with me. And I think it was such a long way off that they agreed and it's come around, but I never thought it's true. Yeah. Um, but I never thought, to be honest that I'd get both of you. So I think to get both of you here speaking is just fantastic. And I'm really excited for our listeners to hear you speak tonight. Um, so just a little bit about Helen and Nancy. Um, so they are both speakers, um, authors. They work with fantastic institutes, um, like early education, um, and Kre in Birmingham. Um, and also have, uh, developed lots of things that we are gonna be very familiar with. So lots of you all have heard of ecat. Lots of you will be working on a regular basis with development matters, and there's lots of fantastic documents and brilliant books that they've worked on, um, that we use actually when we developed Tell's Toolkit. And there's a lot of research and information that we found from listening to Helen and Nancy talk that have helped us develop, tell's, toolkit and do what we do. So I'm really excited tonight to hear what you've got to say, and I think it really resonates with the message that we put across. So I'm gonna hand across to you now, um, and I'll put your PowerPoint up there. Yeah. So, no, I'm really excited to hear what you have to say. So, over to you ladies. Thank you, James. Yes. We thought it's unusual probably having two, but we thought since we're talking about conversations, we would do this in a very informal way and really use our slides as prompts for us to have a conversation about those, those issues. Yeah. Because we're, you know, everybody's talking about the word gap at the moment, aren't they? Everyone talks about this 30 million word gap and how terrible it is and how, you know, we should be teaching children vocabulary and all that sort of stuff. And we don't disagree with that. We think, you know, yeah, there is a word gap and that, you know, some children have, you know, poorer vocabulary than others. But we are very concerned about the idea of just teaching vocabulary. We want to think about thinking conversations, which is why we thought we'd have one tonight if we could, between us as well, about what that word gap's all about and how we can help children to be good thinkers and use the language they have to think well, because that's what we want to be able to do. I presume anyone who's listening will be into thinking and learning. Yes. So that's what we wanna have a conversation about, really. It's, um, when we, you keep hearing the phrase, the 30 million word gap as if it's just about how many words you hear in those first few years, which then leads to how large your own vocabulary is, how many words you know and use. But what's the point of knowing words? It's for what you do with it. And that's what we want to move the discussion onto, is what language, uh, children are using for what purposes and how that helps them in their own thinking and their own creative contact with the world and so on. You wanna say anything, Helen, about this? Um, this slide. Very, it's fine. It's about, yeah, it's about, yeah, about some research by Har and Risley a long time ago now in 1990s, and this report in 1995 about how children in low talking, usually low income families, hear fewer words than children in high talking, usually higher income families, which of course is true. And, you know, that was where the idea of the 3 million word gap came from. But 30 million word gap came from that. By the age of three, some children had heard 30 million words less than others. Now it doesn't mean different words, it means, you know, they haven't, those are the numbers of the words they'd heard, spoken to them, but we know also also Going on in the, in the households it was, uh, yeah, monosyllables and not talk about things. Um, and of course it has a knock on effect. And, and we know that in terms of the number of words children here. But on this slide, we wanted to highlight what is less often talked about in that study. Yes, they found that the quantity of words children heard was far different, but also the quality of talk. So if you look at that first set where they were hearing many fewer words than the children at the bottom, for every time that a child made an overture, you know, tried to communicate, the researchers were coding, did they get an affirmation? Did somebody say yes, yes. Tell me more and show interest. Or were they cut off? And you can see the number of, you know, here we've got, um, only four affirmations for all of those discouragements. And then as you move along, yes, they're being encouraged a lot more and discouraged less. But look at these children. These are the ones who were getting 32, 32 encouragement to five discouragements. That's huge, isn't it? Every four. Amazing. So the quantity of words clearly is what people have left upon. You know, more talk, more talk. But what we want to explore more is it's not just how many words, it's the quality of what that interaction is like. Oh, sorry. I I think I've moved on at the same time as you ly we've gone Yeah. About it. Um, and we've got more, more recent research, which has looked at actually that, you know, it's not just about the number of words that quantity does matter. Um, and that actually, um, as this says, this was a Romeo Allen two, 2018, so this is recent research says that conversational experience helps your brain to process language. And actually it's the conversational experience, not just the sheer quantity of the words heard. That actually explains why children who hear lots of language tend to get better at, at verbal skills because their brains are processing it in the right way. Um, we need that serve and return of conversation to help us become good language users, basically. So, you know, we know that actually that sort of the, the serve and return that I say something, you say something back to me, we have that conversation even before I'm using words, is going to have an impact on how I can actually begin to build up those links I need in my brain to be able to use language as a language user. Um, so we know that, we know that there's lots of useful stuff about conversation going on there. Um, and conversations can be just very, you know, very basic in parentees, that language we use with babies. Oh, how are you today? You know, and the baby smiles and then you say, oh, you are happy. That's a conversation that baby's joining in. They're not just listening, they're responding, and you are responding back to them. How we, how we define conversation too, because a lot of people think a conversation is, they ask the child a question, they get an answer, and they comment on what the child said. And that's the end. You know, that it's called a triad. You get a 1, 2, 3 finished. But that's not a conversation. A conversation ideally starts from the child, not the adult in the first place, and then it goes, but you just keep hitting it back to the child and they send it back to you. So you have to give a response that's really based on what they said, um, so they can grab it and, and give you the next bit. And that to and fro how many actual turns the child had was what they found in this study was the biggest predictor, more coming towards, they heard more than their, um, overall language exposure, and certainly more than their, you know, whether they were a disadvantaged household or not, is how many turns the child had to make that contribution. So really, really important that children are listened to and encouraged to communicate. Okay. Right. Oh, well, yes, we thought this is a important, um, study that went on over, oh, 10 years, Helen, many years as a follow up Report. It actually, I think in this country there's not been an, oh, you know, it was a big study. It's a British study based at the University of Warwick. And it hasn't been, I don't think nearly well enough reported really, because actually what they were looking at were these dimensions of all sorts of things to do with language and how we can actually be better, get children to be better communicated. Um, and it matched what we found when we were working on ecap, that people always looked at the language learning environment quite rightly. You know, you need your environment to be right for learning language. You need children to have opportunities, to have language conversations, to have all sorts of things that will promote their language. But most of all, we need those interactions. It's back to the conversation again. And the child having plenty of chance to have that conversation to be part of it as an active participant. And what the better communication research program found across a whole range of settings in schools was that settings in schools tend to be good at providing a good language learning environment and language learning opportunities. People recognize that children need opportunities to use language, but where they fall down is on the interactions and thinking about the adult role in being a communication partner. And if you go back to, yeah, I mean we, we did find with every child a talker, the first place people started was the environment. And as Helen says, fair enough, that's important, but it's not enough to just make a lovely book corner or improve your outdoor environment. It's a good start. Um, and the language learning opportunities in this program, what they were looking at were planned activities, planned opportunities. So like sharing books, making stories together, you know, all those things, doing nursery rhymes, all important. Um, but also they then looked at, well, what was the quality of interaction going on within everything else? And they ended up with this conclusion that conversations are the core. Um, and they said, you may have the most wonderful environment in the world. You may always provide everyday lang deliberate language activities, but I think that's a really powerful statement. Without adult child interactions of sufficiently high quality and sensitivity, these efforts are not likely to result in desired child outcomes. So it's really about getting that two way sensitive conversation going and keeping it, it going that, um, makes the difference. And I noticed that Charlotte has just said adults need to pay attention and be interested. Oh yes, absolutely. You know, if we are not fascinated by young children and the way they behave and what they say or what they don't say and all of those things, then you know it, we are not going to get anywhere, are we? The interest is so important. That's the whole, that's where conversation comes from being interested in someone else. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And if a child is trying to communicate and we are not interested because we have our own agenda and we just say yes, yes. And go on, then that immediately cuts off anything that the child wants to pursue. And we should be there to help them to follow that thread. So we just hand it back to them to give them a chance to elaborate it, to build it up. And if we're not showing interest, we're basically saying to them, this isn't interesting and you know, even we're not that interested in you. And you know, the opposite of the message that, that we want to share with children, Okay? Oh yes, this is the sad bit. This is what studies find, um, actually happens in most schools, preschools and schools, when they just record and codify what kind of talk is going on? What are the adults doing? Are we showing interest? Are we, you know, thinking, encouraging children to tell us about what they're curious about, what they're imagining? No, it's all of these basic management, which are all Important. I mean, they're all important things. We all have to do those things. I mean, you have to organize the place. We have to, you know, we have to provide children with assistance, manage behavior, all of those things. But actually, if that's most of the talk, then when does the conversation happen? You know, it just isn't about, you know, children are doing a lot of listening in that sort of talk, aren't they? There's not much of the two and crowd going To go back to Har and Risley when they said that the adults, I mean, the children in the low talk families heard so many fewer words. They actually looked at what kind of talk they heard, and they said there was a certain amount of what they called management talk. And that's what this is, isn't it? And but the thing was, the children in the low talk families, the middle talk families and the high talk families all had similar amounts of management talk, but it's just that that's all they got in the low talk families. But in the others, particularly the high talk ones, they were talking about everything under the sun. And we're in too many cases within our work with children falling back into being like a low talk family, where it's just this low level stuff that, that isn't going to move them on to think about. You know, you do have to do all that. Just we don't stop there. Yes. Ah, okay. So when they do, yeah, and that's The other thing, What happens still not the best. Um, yes, people have looked at grouping strategies into different categories of, of you know, what they're providing for children and they find that people do use some strategies pretty often. So, you know, the idea of make eye contact, get face to face, make eye contact, but it's still mainly adults talking at children. And then that last so important, not engaging in cognitively challenging conversations. You know, think of all the opportunities you have in a day to do that. Mm-Hmm. As children are, are playing, making their stories, making narratives to support them, to extend it, to pull it forward and make those links. Mm. But again, that's about, you know, yeah. Somebody, yeah, Kate just said give them time, value what the child says and give them time. Because actually, you know, life is often about rushing children through things, isn't it? Oh, it's often about rushing children through all Child centered strategy. Wait and listen, wait, give them time. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes wait for them To talk, you know? And one of the things that is interesting is how often do adults wait for the child to start the interaction? Or do they always feel they have to be the one that speaks first? Um, and that's sometimes quite hard just to be there and wait for something to happen rather than just always be, because, you know, we are almost sort of programmed, um, as practitioners to be constantly teaching, um, in the broadest sense now. Yeah. Charlotte, silence can be golden indeed. But silence is something somewhat lacking in most areas. Settings a lot of the time, obviously, because there are a lot of people in there. But Yes. You know, Um, that's interesting what Sarah says is the unknown that adults find hard. Yeah. To not be in charge, to not know where it's gonna go and to just receive is, is difficult. Yeah. Yeah. Wait and listen and see what the child gives you. People do find very hard. I have had a lot of practitioners ask me about one of the strategies that reser researchers point to as effective, which is wait for the child to start the interaction. And they say, a lot of times people say, but what if the child doesn't, you know, they're not very engaged. You don't have that rapport automatically. And they're a child who's a reluctant talker, maybe a reluctant communicator. So they're not really even wanting to look at you and you know, and engage with you. So you can't just leave them forever. You can't wait for them to start. Well, it depends on what you mean by the child making a start and how sensitively you can just go alongside and mirror what the child's doing, show an interest since you make eye contact and get a little glimpse and the child gives you a facial expression. Even that's a start. But, you know, to just march in on a child and say, oh, what are you doing here? And blah, blah, you know, it totally cuts off any chance of the child feeling heard. Yeah. Yes. Responding to The child's giving you. Yeah. Which is sort of easy. I mean, because children, generally speaking, we are talking about children who know you. You know, this is not about talking to strangers. This is about talking with children that you know well and that, you know, you, you are hopefully comfortable with. So you are there with them. And you, you know, there are all sorts of ways of being with children, aren't there? You know, you can just be there together and maybe no one's saying anything. Maybe you're just holding hands. Maybe you're just looking at something. Maybe you are both just fiddling with something on the table or whatever, but there's something, there will be communication going on. It's just hard sometimes for practitioners to understand that communication isn't always language. And often the language will start from the nonverbal communication. 'cause there's some, there's relationship stuff going on, isn't there, which is about trust and all sorts of other things that we need in order to have a good conversation. But, you know, you have to be sensitive to the child. And as Sarah has said, it's the unknown, isn't it? You have to be aware of the fact that you don't know what's going to happen next. But then you don't, you know, in those conversations. No, actually the joint conversation is not knowing sometimes, isn't it? Yes. I, in a in a conversation, we don't. And I think it's us having to get out of that, um, idea that, you know, we are teaching, so we have to know what, what is gonna happen and to, to let go of that and step into a shared space where we are waiting to see what the child brings and that we can then respond to. Um, yes. I mean, because we do, uh, you'll see on this chart the, this is again, the big tick on sensitive, because researchers find those are the strategies people use most often. And they sometimes use that middle bit, which is sort of helping children to interact by encouraging term, taking, imitating what they're doing. But they very seldom do that bottom one about being the stimulating partner. So it's about helping children to also extend what they've said to think about it further and, and to use, you know, other, um, ways to describe what's happening or make a narrative or whatever. Um, And that's, that's often about just being able to comment on what the child's doing rather than ask them a question. Because of course, it's hard to extend language if you are constantly questioning. 'cause all you are doing then is putting the child on the spot rather than actually modeling anything that is going to help them extend their own language. So it's quite a hard one. It's quite hard not to ask questions as an adult with a child, even as parents. I mean, I don't just mean as practitioners, but actually, you know, parents often go into that mode as well. 'cause they think, right, well, what's going on? I need to hug out. Um, rather than just think, you know, let's just talk. I mean, you know, because very often it's what, um, it's what linguists call contingent response that's really important. In other words, you know, if you, I mean, if you go home after a long day and you are tired and you say to your nearest and dearest, oh, I'm absolutely exhausted. And he or she says, what's for supper? That is not a contingent response. That is, you know, somebody with their own interest. And it's that sort of feeling. Sometimes children will say something to us and then we ask 'em another question rather than just go with whatever they've said. Like, you know, you need that person when you say, oh, I'm really tired to say, oh, you know, what's made you so tired today? Or was it a long meeting? Or whatever it might be. You know, you don't need them to ask their own question. And children don't need us to ask our own questions all the time. Mm, yes. From Charlotte about being too busy to tick because they need to tick something off. It's where we get in our own little narrow track of what we think our important job is, is ticking off all of these objectives instead of realizing one of our most important jobs is to give children that space and support to become good communicators. And that can be about anything. It doesn't matter what the con content is, it's whatever the child wants it to be. Yeah. It's because We're very good at that. And you know, we're very good conversation with aren't we as adults? We've got loads and loads of practice. So I mean, you know, we are not going to, it's not really the unknown at all. It's just using the skills we've got with someone who's much younger and less experienced to help them become as good at conversation as we are. I mean, we did say in ecat every child of talk at every adult and listener, um, and, you know, we need to do a bit more of that really, don't we? We do. I did wanna say something though about, um, that, you know, being the stimulating partner, the language modeling, um, one study looked at what language interactions children are exposed to at different ages and how that then affected them sometime later. And they were using almost the kind of word gap technol, um, terminology. Partly because it's hard to count, um, the ways that children use language. It's easier to count numbers of words. So researchers use that just as a way, a quick, you know, way to keep track. So they looked at, um, when babies and toddlers up to the age of two, what kind of language were they exposed to? And looked at their vocabulary at three. And they found that in the first two years when they, the more language they heard, the better the vocabulary. So quantity really was important. So talk, talk, talk to babies and toddlers, but by the time you were two, between two and three, they found what made the biggest difference by the time you were four was when adults were giving you that, where it says there a variety of labels. So instead of just always saying, um, you know, your shoes, you talk about your trainers or your sandals or your boots or, you know, so do you get, you hone in on different concepts, then you know, what's the difference in a sandal and a boot? And you become much more aware. Instead of just saying, I'm tired, you could say, oh, I'm really shattered, I'm worn out. You know, many ways to say the same thing. So when that happened with two year olds, they had a much better vocabulary by three. But between three and five, it really changed. And what made the biggest difference was that idea of expanding and extending narratives and conversations and explanations. So, you know, the whole thing about storymaking really fits there as, you know, a story that's an imaginary story or just rehearsing the story of what we did this morning when we went to the shop and you know, we saw that, didn't we? And, um, but also, yeah, predicting explanations. Think talking about ideas and we'll, we're gonna move on to talk about self-regulation and why that being able to talk about more complex ideas and extend it is so important for developing children as self-regulating thinkers and learners too. Mm. Move on. There we go. Well, we've said most of that actually haven't we? Good conversation is, yeah, Let's, let's think about self. The government has decided that self-regulation is a very important thing, which is great. You know, it's always good when A DFE, you know, gets onto something that we've been banging on about for a long time. Um, but unfortunately they seem to be working with a definition of self-regulation, which is all about only one bit of self-regulation, which is emotional. Well, a part of emotional self-regulation, which is about being able to behave and manage your feelings of behaviors and things, which is important. Obviously, you know, it's part child development. But actually what we're very interested in, particularly in this context of language, is cognitive self-regulation. Being able to think about your own thinking and have the language to do that thinking. Um, and we know that, you know, being able to be, have some control and autonomy and some agency in your own learning, um, is a very good thing in terms of learning. And I mean, that's just a little quote from Martha Bronson who wrote a whole book on self-regulation. But you know, that actually the ma one of the major source of differences between the height and lowest achieving children in school is the degree to which they become regulators, their own learning. They're doing it for their own joy in learning rather than because somebody's telling them to do it. And of course, we know that experience early years can support or hinder children's developing self-regulation and learning. So the emotional self-regulation is important because that gives us, you know, that feeling of wellbeing or that social emotional stuff that we know about. You know, knowing about myself, myself, and relation to others, how I feel about myself and other people, my will actually underpin my disposition to learning, you know, do I feel positive about myself as a learner, which is really important. So all that emotional segregation is important. And also I think that emotional wellbeing and that we have to put it first, um, that if you don't feel well happy, safe, then, you know, forget the cognitive side, that it is really fundamental, but it's not enough either that we, and we mustn't forget that the cognitive side of being ready, willing, and able to learn through those, those characteristics. Because About the government getting tuned in to self-regulation, they, um, in the way that they're revising the early learning goals, they're piloting something where they've put what they're calling self-regulation as part of PSED. They have not got the handle on what it is at all. But they were also exploring whether they could do self-regulation as part of the baseline assessment within 20 minutes to find out about language literacy, spoken language, um, maths and self-regulation. And they've just put something out today and yesterday saying they've given up on doing self-regulation as part of that because, um, you can't find out within 20 minutes as part of the other test. So in other words, it's so important, but it's too hard to test. So we're leaving it out. And it is complex. It is complex because you have to talk and have thinking together. We can't test it. So where does language fit in with self-regulation? Wow. Challenges. Yes. That lovely picture. I mean, really it is, you know, there's old wienstein who was good on philosophy and many things to do with language, but you know, that limits of my language being the limits of my world. And actually that's why we can't disagree with anyone who is worried about the word gap and, you know, children's limited vocabulary, all of those things, yes, they are a huge concern because actually we need language to think about things and we need language to not limit us, but to actually broaden our horizons and make us, you know, the good learners that we can be. Um, because we don't want children to be limited by their language or anything else, actually. Um, so, you know, thinking about that then. Yeah. But before you leave that, um, I was thinking about that, the importance of language in terms of your own awareness of ideas. Um, there are philosophers who would say that until you can name it in a sense, if you don't have the word for it, you can't quite grasp the idea. And that words stand for symbols that help us to keep thoughts in our mind, and if we haven't got the word or the sentence structure. So we dunno how to think, what if means this if then we just see things in black and white and we can't think in fine detail. So language is so important to help us to think beyond what's right in front of us in the here and now in the physical world into realms of imagination, things that happened yesterday, things that haven't happened yet and might and might not, but we need the words to help us to kind of cement that in our own thinking. Yeah. And actually, if you think about babies who don't have language, it's not that they don't think, but they're developing us thinkers and we can't stay at that stage. You know, we know that if you are thinking about babies are very good at thinking, but they're very good at thinking at that stage of their lives, then they, we need to go beyond that. And we need to go beyond it as quickly as we can in order to make as much sense as we can of the world that we're in. If you look at two year olds playing, you know, if you think about schemas, that's a physical embodiment, isn't it, of understanding about the world in many ways. And, uh, you know, what they're doing by repeating things over and over again, both physically and emotionally and verbally is about, you know, testing the limits, finding out where the limits are and going beyond them all the time. And that's so, so important. And that's why we need to give children the chance to play if we think about storying as we move on, you know, as you were talking about language becoming more complex. Um, so, you know, knowing what if might mean, well, if we do this, that possibility thinking stuff, you know, it's all there in favorite stories, isn't it? You see children doing the, you know, I'm the princess and you are wondering goat gruff, and now we're going for a walk and all, you know, this is a whole load of stuff going on here that is about thinking. It's not just a sort of pat 'em on the head and say, all right, okay, well now that you've finished your proper work, go and do that. This is actually the work that's going on. All that imagination and creativity is what's helping children to be good learners. So I'm just making plea for play to the converted. I know, but you know. Yeah. So kinds of thinking and think about the talk that goes on around all of those things. And you know, we, we recalling, we've got, there is the very, very lowest level of thinking, just remembering. So you say, um, what was the name of the so and so, and they can tell you the name just because they've remembered that's not those higher order levels of, of thinking where we really start to use our minds in, um, much more sophisticated ways. And they need talk. They all need opportunities to, to talk them through. You see Kate said there about talking in role play, you know, how many of those things happen just within role play? Yeah, Yeah. And problem solving, you know, you don't need to laminate a problem and put it in the book play for children to have problems. They have problems with each other more than anything else. And they're the most important problems, aren't they? And in role play, that's where you get problems. But I wanna be the princess. Yes, we have princess and avoid me the princess if he wants to, and why not? And yes, and you know, all of that why is, Why is somebody goat gring this in this story? It's not in this story, you know? And children go in and out. I mean, they problem solve in play very well because they are able to switch in and out, don't they? They'll say things like, you know, right, okay, I'm the princess. Okay. Oh, well, okay, no, let's change now. You are the princess and you are the princess and I'm going to be the dog now. And then they go straight back into the play again. You know, I know One child who is, I know one child who is so self-regulated in terms of role play. And in that context it means, you know, knowing the way you're thinking, really being aware of moving in and out of different modes of thinking. So she will suddenly say, can we just pause a minute? Let's pause the game because I wanna talk about so and so, and she'll, you know, talk through an issue and then, okay, let's start again. I mean, that is really deep self-regulation of having total control over where you are. Yeah. And a lot of children do because they want to keep the play going. They're very invested in it. Motivation to do it. Yeah. Yeah. But they've got, and they've got strategies for doing that. And I mean, you know, I've been playing with children where, you know, I've obviously got a bit overenthusiastic or, you know, I can remember playing the owl babies and actually crying. Um, and one of the children say to me, it's only pretend aum, it's only pretend you don't choking me. Like, you know, just to remember, it's okay, you are, you are all right now. Those are high order skills, aren't they, to go in and out to be able to see that this is something we are doing, which has connection with other things in the world, and we can go in and out of it and we can also do all that. What if, what if now, you know, And that flexibility of mind to use your mind in different ways for different purposes that Yeah. Feeling safe too. I mean, certainly in, in stories and, and play, you can try out scary things in, in that safe context. Well, They're scary. I mean, children's stories, it's full of scary. They're often about awful things happening, particularly to, you know, family members. I, I mean, I've got various stories that have been written for me over the years about dreadful things happening. And my grandchildren are very blood thirsty when it comes to stories, but Oh, but it's all safe because you do it in the story, don't you? You know? And it all, and it all comes out okay. So, you know, imagining, reflecting and comparing, sorting out feelings, being able to go through some of that stuff that is scary, you know, and, and be okay, um, important. So what's the adult got to do with it? Children can be so good at developing that on their own. So we have to think about where do we fit in, you know, where, um, I mean, that's always a really big issue, isn't it? You know, the sensitivity to think, when is this going so wonderfully for those children that I am not needed here and I need to get outta our way and stand back and admire it and make mental notes mental, not written necessarily, not millions of photos, but, you know, learn from it. Um, but you might not have to be involved, but there are times where you do have something to add and, you know, becoming part of that, uh, that play that, um, whatever it is that children are struggling with or exploring or celebrating, um, sustain shared thinking, being where we do that together and we really become that sort of scaffolded support for children to push their thinking a bit further, to clarify it, to be more precise, to think about contradictions and, and so on. So being that conversation partner is where that happens. Where we're not taking over, we're staying on their agenda, but we're, you know, taking it as something that we're really interested in too. And we don't know the answers, we just want to explore it with them in that, um, partnership way. Yeah. You know, children need help, don't they? Like we all do. You know, I mean, the reason why we have meetings as adults, when somebody chairs the meeting, the chair, the good chair of any meeting is the person who says, right, okay, now we seem to have, you know, the following three ideas here. You know, those are people who are useful, aren't they, in any conversation? Because if you've got a group of people who are all talking about something, they're all very invested in, you need someone who now and again says, right, okay, so Ben seems to think this and Chloe seems to think that, and you seems to think this, wonder what we can, how we can take this forward. You know? Now that's part of the, it's almost like that being the chair, isn't it? It's sort of listening, reflecting back, and then trying to take things forward for children. Because quite often, you know, they need reminding of what's been said. They need that I need reminding of what they said earlier. Oh, you said so and so, and now you're saying this. What do you think about that? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, here we are, invite them to elaborate, recap. That's what we're talking about. Remind them what others said, what they said. Give our own experience. And so much better than asking a question, you know, to just say, well, when I do that, you know, what I find is, or what happened to me was, and that invites them to then think, well, what's my response to that in what's my experience? And, um, it's not putting them on the spot, but it's been, and it's also, Yeah, I'm saying things like, you know, oh, I don't think Sam agrees with you. You know, to sort of get them to think, oh, okay. So, you know, think about what Sam's just said. Don't keep saying what you've been saying. Think, well, if he doesn't agree with me, what, what is he saying? You know, it's that sort of role of, yeah, not, not taking over, but actually just saying, look, this is what's happening in this conversation. Pay attention to what's going on in the conversation. And in terms of self-regulation of thinking, a big step in that is for children to recognize that they are thinkers. 'cause very young children aren't aware of their thinking. They just think what is is. And they think everyone thinks the same as they do, or has the same knowledge and the same understanding. And so it's a step to realize that theory of mind that I have a mind and I can use it this way or that way. And other people have a mind that they use in different ways, and that helps you to get such a handle on it. So saying, you know, I don't think he agrees with you. You know, he thinks differently. He has a different thought about that. So using that language of how we're thinking, you know, he thought about it, but thought something different so that we, we can really become more aware that we're thinking about things all the time. Yeah. Okay. Oh, can we show a bit of video now? Yes. Yes. We want to show you this. Um, there's a wonderful educator Wait, wait, don't turn it on yet, because we wanna show them what we want them to think about. Um, a, a wonderful, um, woman who works with mainly babies and toddlers in California called Janet Lansbury. And this is her video, so you hear her in the background. And these are toddlers who are hardly verbal, beginning to speak. Wow. Um, but this is an instance where she's not using organizing talk such as, you know, he had it first and you can have it next. And you know, she's not sorting out the problem at all. She's doing that recapping, she's helping them to clarify. And so what we want you to do is watch this video and you can make some notes, you know, chat in on our little chat list, things that you notice that she does some of the things that we've been talking about that help the children to become more aware of their own thinking and more aware of other people's thinking and begin to put it into some words. Yeah. Mm. Okay. You ready to watch? Okay. Press play. Sit. You said you want to sit down? Yes, I was Sit down. Yes, Yes. I here here right now. Right now. I now I now, Right now you want to do something right now? What would you like to do? Blue In the blue Out. You want SNA to get out? I don't know if SNA wants to get out or not. I don't know. She went now she went out. But Z's in the blue box right now. In the box right now? Yeah. Get out. Come out. Trying to come out. Is it hard to do? So stuck. You feel stuck here. Is your legs stuck? Honey, you gonna lift your leg up? Can you get it now? Oh, you did it. Were you worried for a moment Right now? Right now? Nina's in the box right now. Are we? I think we're, no, there we're. Okay, so we've got a couple of notes there. Uh, she's not intervening great to see them solving problems themselves. Yeah. She didn't say this is what, how we're gonna handle it. Did she, The temptation is to go in like the un isn't it? And sort it out for them. Um, you know, we've probably all done that, but when you do that, what skills do the children learn apart from the fact of they'll do it for them. Yeah. She reflected the child's language and feelings, didn't she? Very, yes. You know, she just, Yes. When the girl couldn't get outta the box and was going into, you know, close to panic mode, you know, ah, my legs caught. She stayed very calm. But first of all, she talked about the procedure, so that give explanation, you need to raise your leg a little bit. And then did you feel worried about that? So putting a feeling into words to help the child to recognize Yeah. That is what worried feels like. And yeah, she, she helped to give it that really safe context, didn't she? Suggesting that the child has a different view. I don't know if she wants to get out the box right now. Yeah. Rather than, you know, yes, you have to, or you know, we have to do sharing, um, or whatever you'll sharing. You'll have a turn in a minute. Yes. Yeah. Actually we are just, you know, we are just going with the flow here. Um, and she is very calm and I think that is a real, you know, one of the things about having conversations with children at any stage, really, I mean, what even any age is you have to be that still calm center of safeness really in the whole thing, don't you? But actually, if you are calm and not imputing blame even by your tone of voice, just by, you know, just saying, oh, I don't know whether she wants to get out right now, um, in a calm way is not saying, well, you know, I don't think she wants to get out as if, you know, she should want to get out, but actually she doesn't seem to want to get out. It's just a statement, you know? And it's about like staying calm and not getting, not upping the emotional empty because children, you know, need that for you to be calm and consistent about it in conversation. She was also taking them seriously. Um, she was giving them the respect of paying close attention, sticking with it. Yeah. And you know, I often find that people, um, don't take children as seriously as I would as some, as you would another adult. And they'd be going, oh look, you know, oh, she's having, she wants in the box. Well, it's not funny. It's not funny to that child. It's, this is a serious matter. So just accepting it at face value and trying to pick up from the child, you know, what's important to her. Yeah, yeah. Too easy to assist the child. Yeah. Yeah. Being calm, it's stopped her panicking. Helped her to, to realize it's gonna be okay and we can find a strategy, which is again, a big part of self-regulation. There is a way to solve it and we'll try different things and we'll sort it out. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I just think it's a lovely example. It's not very long, but it's a lovely example of an everyday conflict because, I mean, this is so common, isn't it? You know, we've got whatever resources we've got, you know, a blue one and red one. We both want the blue one. I mean, you know, that's just the, you know, everyday thing, isn't it? Um, and actually it's about not, not demanding things for children that they're not capable of giving you, like sharing as a, you know, I mean we can't share a blue box 'cause we can't both fit in it at once comfortably. And it's not sensible to try and share it actually. Uh, but then on the other hand, turn taking is something that we need to learn about. You know, we are not quite at that stage of being able to think ahead like that. You know, this is all about our process, isn't it, of being with the children when they are developmentally, but giving them that language as well as the backup to help them think about it in the future because it's gonna happen again. I mean, it might not be about the blue and red boxes. It'll be something else. That's what I mean about you don't need laminated cards to have problems that main problems that happen are other children and resources, things, you know, I think that point that we're busy, it's easy to fix the problem. Um, so we don't put our focus where it could make such a difference. Um, that often happens with conflicts, but you know, it is almost reflects back to the idea that people are too busy ticking off learning objectives. You are busy on what you think is important at the time. I've gotta get through all this and there's a lot going on. But if we stop and think what really is important, what's worth giving our time and attention to, you know, these are the, the things, ah, here's a question. Should the teacher have said excellent sharing and being kind? Hmm. Would the children have understood what that meant at that stage? Yes. For one thing, did she share? Not really. I think she was just ready to get out then she wasn't getting out because it was the other one's turn and there didn't seem to be an expectation that she should. So I, um, I don't think it's about that. And she wasn't even particularly being kind, but she might have done something like point out, oh, I think whatever the second child's name is, is happy now to be in the box. She's happy now that she, she's having a turn, but not putting the weight on the first child because she's too young to, to do, to have that, enough of that perspective. But to just point out somebody else's feelings I think is appropriate at this stage. What would you say about her? Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I don't think that, you know, having excellent sharing doesn't mean anything to them. And, and as you say, it wasn't really sharing. Um, but also being kind is quite, you know, it's something they, they're learning about obviously, and they're interested in being kind to each other probably. But you know, yeah, just pointing out the other person's feelings rather than pushing that onus on the Other you get into it with is if you use praise like that, you know, ex great sharing, oh, that was lovely, being kind and the child doesn't really know what it means. All they know is they've got your praise and it actually makes them more looking to you for approval rather than really understanding the consequences of things. So it's the opposite of being self-regulated. They become others regulated. You know, do you like this? Is this what you want me to do? Is this, what is it you want me to do? Instead of, if you can point out the consequences like you finished your turn, now she's happy because she's having a turn that gives them what actually counts, which is other people's feelings for them to start to notice and respond to. So yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, creative, creative, sharing ideas from one person to another. Um, we were talking about how language, any exchange, but anytime you put anything into language, it's a creative act because unless you're just parroting a nursery rhyme that you've been told by rote, you know, you just have rote memory of, of language, everything else that you say. You are having to take that complex mix of thoughts, feelings, sensations, and put it into a sentence for yourself or a word. And it's not one you've necessarily heard in that combination before. For instance, I don't know whether anyone in the world has ever just said the sentence I just said before, I made it up as I went along. You know, it's a creative act and there's a huge amount of imagination in language all the time, uh, which is what makes it so wonderful and individual. Yes. And which means that we can play with it. And you know, it's why, you know, even two and three year olds will begin the idea that they can tell you jokes because that's about playing with language, isn't it? You know, that you can do all sorts of things with language. You can be scary with language, you can also make other people laugh and you know, that's a great discovery, isn't it? Because even, you know, a 2-year-old is inventing sentences just like Nancy just done has, and I'm just doing now as we go along, we are not sure what's going to appear next because, but we've got so internalized the structure of our own language and its grammar and syntax that we can do this. And we do it very early. If you think about it, you know, if you think about 3-year-old can produce a sentence that has meaning that they've never heard before, which is incredible, isn't it? You know, what a thing to be able to do. And you know, if you think about bilingual and multilingual young children, they are doing that in two or three different languages and they therefore have two or three different ways of being creative, which is incredible too. You know, I'm just jealous because I'm pretty monolingual. Um, that's a shame Stuck in that position. Yeah. I've just realized we're coming over the end of our hour and we didn't wanna, um, just have a nod to Vivian, Gus and Paley, who is such an inspiration and a lot of her work is around story making, so I'm sure you've um, uh, come looked at that and, and looked at her wonderful techniques of children sharing their stories together. But she also does a lot around just discussions about problem solving with children. And I think, you know, this quote was, is so important. It's about that again, it's not about being on our track, being busy and we have the point that we expect to reach and anything else is a distraction. So, you know, I've got the answer, but actually those distractions are that, ah, why did you say that? That's where some creative new link has been made, some thinking and to stick with it and follow it. And it's a wonderful reminder to, to value those sparks, um, from children. Yeah, I mean, that's what we want. We want to hear the sounds of the children thinking, which is, you know what it's all about, isn't it? You know, if education isn't about that, then what is it about really? Um, you know, because if we don't, if we just want to get the right answer, then that's the easy peasy. But the interesting and wonderful stuff is the sound of thinking actually, and we should be able to hear our own thinking as well, but maybe the children's thinking. Yeah, I think that's a very, very good note to be ending on. Big, big hero Vivian. So yeah. Yeah, lots of links with storytelling. Um, there was, um, one of the questions that came out, and if anybody's got any questions at this point, if they want to, um, type, then we can, then we can have a look through them. Um, but one of the questions that came out that Charlotte asked was, um, does talking to yourself help? So, um, when you are playing with the children, like some people call it subtitle in their play or commenting on what they're doing, but what, what do you have to say about that? Yes, yes. Huge help. Huge help. What they call it private speech when children do it to themselves and they're narrating their own play. And children that do more of that, um, develop greater language obviously, and also more self-regulation, but for us to be models of that is ideal. So they hear literally the sounds of us thinking as models for them as well. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Good to do. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Um, one of the things that, um, that came out as well was, um, lots of stuff around kind of conflict and managing conflicts. And I found that really interesting, like watching the video and seeing the ways that teachers manage that. And I think that's, that's given me a lot to think about and it's probably given a lot of the teachers things to think about. 'cause I think it's very easy to be busy and to, and to not have time for those kind of situations, but actually by solving those and by giving time, then you're making your future a lot easier. So you're giving those children skills to be able to move forward. Yeah. So, no, I thought that was really interesting. Yeah, and it's about what we are doing when we're educating children. Part of what we do is not just fill them up with knowledge, but actually help them to become decent human beings. And one way we do that is be able to interact with other human beings in a way that will help us. And, and resolving conflict is something, which is a lifelong thing, isn't it? I mean, you know, it's one of those things that we are going to always have in our lives because, you know, we always disagree with people or whatever, but if you think about the world, I mean, this is probably a bit profound, but I mean, you know, just if you just think about some of the conflict that is going on in the world right now, wouldn't it be better if more people could resolve conflict peacefully and, you know, in negotiation with others rather than just resorting to bashing the living daylights outta each other? Um, you know, we seem to still have not managed to use those skills well enough, really. And so the, the, you know, the sooner we start, the better, Better for everyone, sorry. Think Once children are more verbal, which those two were not at the stage of being able to talk through solutions yet. But once they're a little more verbal, um, there is the next step. So first of all, you just acknowledge their feelings and you bounce it back and you make sure that they've both been heard and heard each other's point of view, but then it's really handing the question to them and saying, what can we do so that you'll both be happy? And then checking who's got an idea, who's got another idea? Do you like that idea? So you're just there as the support for them to think it through. And it becomes very powerful and very young children can get very good at it, solving their own problem. It's really, it's, it's a high scope approach to problem solving that really, I mean, you know, Nancy and I both have used it as practitioners. We know it works. Um, but it's a long process and you know, it's nice to see it beginning with toddlers actually. But, you know, it does work. I mean, children will solve their own problems. They will particularly be motivated to do it while they're playing because they want to keep the play going. Um, but you know, there'll be all sorts of reasons why they need help with that. But that's part of the, you know, helping children do it themselves rather than, you know, it's the self-regulation again, isn't it, rather than us. That's True. Um, I was really interested because, um, when I read your book, the Characteristics of Effective Learning, um, and it says in there about high scope and the fact that, um, the children that had access to the high school education, uh, it made a huge difference all the way through their lives. Um, I dunno if you just wanna mention that. Yeah, Well, yes. I mean, that's the most lengthy study I think that we have where children were followed from age three, well into their forties. And children who had been to the high scope settings growing up in disadvantaged, vulnerable children, families had lifelong effects in terms of their educational outcomes, but also their, um, lifetime earnings, their relationships, their role in the community, um, not going to prison, and that sort of thing. Really becoming, um, responsible and active members of society who could make and keep relationships. And a lot of of that was about, um, the way children were making their own plans, being responsible for their own activities supported by adults. Um, so that giving children, yeah, they were gonna do it. Yeah. And, and to also to reflect afterwards. So they did the plan, do review, so what did, what happened, what did we learn? What could be different? So they became very powerful regulated thinkers and it makes a lifetime of difference. Yeah, Big difference. Yeah. Um, so has anybody else got any questions? Um, before I let these ladies go off and have an evening? Let's give them a few seconds just to see if there's anybody else, but No, it's been, it's been really good tonight. I think it's been great to hear like the message really kind of pushed forward and lots of background that goes with it. Um, so Aura is asking, at what point can a teacher intervene when the children are unable to resolve themselves? Well, a teacher can intervene at any point, really. I mean, it's up to them, isn't it? To, you know, depending on the age of the children, obviously, because this is a process, isn't it? Obviously with the toddlers, you could say the teacher didn't, she intervened in that she was there, but she didn't intervene directly to do it for them. She was just there. And that is the intervention. So, um, Yeah, I mean, I would say that it's worth, um, it's worth taking the time and it can be a very long time. So it's much, it's a great temptation to say, I know how we can solve this. But to actually just say, Hmm, what can we do? It's again, it's wait, wait, take their ideas. Yeah. And if it's about a conflict over an object, often it's that you say, let me hold it while we think what to do. Yeah. And also using That language of we, you know, we have a problem, Problem solve it. What can we do so that everyone will be happy with it? And, you know, that's the goal. So that we all agree and you will get there. Other children often contribute an idea and you just checked, is that, would you like that idea? Would you like that idea? You can also suggest an idea if they haven't come up with one, but not Okay, I'll tell you what we're gonna do. Well, here's one idea I thought of. So again, you are just another participant, you know, this is an idea I thought of. What do you think about that? You know, would, would you like that idea? So, you know, give them a chance first, but you can intervene in terms of giving a suggestion but not imposing it. Yeah. Yeah. We, we do quite a lot of work. Um, we do quite a lot of work with Tell's toolkit where, um, we use the symbols and problem solution and we'll say to the children, um, you know, we've got a problem and we get 'em to think of three solutions and then make a choice about which one they want to move forward with. Um, we've had some really interesting discussions come from that. Um, yeah. Mm-Hmm. Um, Elizabeth Stevenson has asked, uh, do you have any ideas for training staff in a busy nursery? Well, Big question. Yeah. I mean, yes, in the sense that, you know, there are some, there are some things that you can immediately aren't there, you know, in terms of thinking about, you know, I mean the, just the things that might be helpful. I mean, I, you know, you can't, I'm thinking you need, you know, you, it depends how long you've got for training, et cetera, doesn't it? But in terms of some ideas for just, you know, the, the, I don't know if you know the five finger rule, that's a really easy thing you can do, which is, you know, an ECAP thing where, you know, you've got five fingers. And when you ask a question, it's to prevent you asking too many questions. And it's a fun thing you can do with other people is, you know, you've, you've, you've asked a child a question, so that's your son gone, and then you've got to make four comments before you can ask another question. So you count 'em on your fingers basically. Now, you know, that's quite a good thing. That's just a very simple thing to do with a group of staff just to say, right, are we asking too many questions? You probably are. Which probably most people will agree. Yeah, we ask a lot of questions. Okay, well, let's try this and we'll all do it today. Every time I ask a question, I've got to ask you four more comments. And, you know, comments can be Mm, sometimes, but not, you can't do four, you know, you're not going around all day asking questions. Then in between going Mm-Hmm. Um, it is about practicing the, you know, oh, I can see, you know, when, when you've asked a question to of a child just saying, oh, I can see what you, you are putting those red blocks over there now, you know, that's just a comment, isn't it? It's not saying it, it's not asking a question, it's just commenting on what, yeah. I mean, that's a one technique that's about the reducing questions. And you could choose another one. Like, we're going to increase how long we wait when we've said something to child before we, but in with the next thing. So you could say, okay, we're gonna wait at least three or maybe five seconds. Um, but it's the same kind of technique, you know, Helen suggested that, that you do as a team. So if you focus on one thing at a time, and then you just be aware of it for each other and give each other the thumbs up when you've seen it. So you're supporting each other to gradually let these things become habits that you do together. But, you know, it requires more than that, doesn't it? It requires reflection and thinking about why we're doing all of these things. And there are no shortcuts to becoming really good communication partners. It's lots of hard work. And, you know, those are just a couple of techniques that might be helpful. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And they should you play this webinar to them, they can listen to you say it to them, so, yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you ladies go now. Um, so a big thank you for tonight. I think everyone's really appreciated you coming out and there's been some great messages in there. So just like to say a big thank you for, for talking to us tonight, so yeah, really appreciate it. Thanks. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, and thank you everybody for coming out on an evening and spending your evening with us as well, so, so yeah. And thank you, Kate. What time of the morning? It's in Dubai right now, but I think it's time for you. One o'clock in the pajamas.