WEBVTT - This file was automatically generated by VIMEO. Please email info@talestoolkit.com to report problems. I'm really excited tonight that we've got Dr. Kay Matherson here to talk to us. And, um, I first met Kay, actually a little while back at a conference, and I heard Kay speak, and she talked on the same topic that she's gonna be discussing tonight, which is superheroes. She's got a cracking sense of humor, so I think you are all gonna really, really enjoy tonight's webinar. And Kim, when I met her, I know she's gonna love me mentioning this a couple of minutes into a talk. She fell off the back of the stage, so yeah. But she was a complete champ and jumped up with her arms in the air. That was, then I knew that it was gonna be a good talk. So, um, so Kay's worked in early years and primary settings for a long, long time, and she's got lots of brilliant experience. Um, and she's worked a lot with children with additional needs, um, and especially around behavior and with their families. Um, and she's led the early years inclusion team for London Boroughs. Um, she did a PhD research of social competence in young children, and she's worked with the national strategies as an advisor. And also she's written lots of amazing books. So there's just a few that I've popped up here. Um, and she also is a speaker and a consultant, and she's director of Lin Learning. So you should check that out and have a look too. And I'm gonna hand over to Kate to chat now over to uk. Lovely. Thanks, Kate. Hi, everybody. It's, uh, lovely to be here. So, um, I want to start off just with, with that sort of like the picture on, on that slide with the, the two, uh, faces there about, you know, what is this all about? And many practitioners, I think, feel, ooh, superheroes bit scary. Not really sure we should be letting that happen. So I'm guessing that we're all kind of somewhere in, in that camp, camp and I honest and say that's where I started. You know, boys are always doing B Bash bosh, I don't think I should be having this. I think I should be closed. Um, but I'm a convert and I have done a bit of, um, research, a bit of thinking about, lots of reading about what is this superhero stuff. Um, so what I'm gonna share with you tonight is how I see the superhero play fitting in with child development and some of the typical things that we see children do, um, and what it might all mean and how it might come together. For this session, I just want to talk through the, uh, developmental considerations. So thinking about the ages and stages of the truth, um, but then I want to think a little bit more deep. Who are these superheroes? What do we know about them? Um, and then fitting in with Kate's work and the Tales toolkit stuff, looking at the, uh, comparison and the similarities between, uh, story structures with superheroes and how we might use that as a way to, to help children move forward their thinking about language. It's worth having a little reflection on what's it like at the moment in your setting. What do you see the children actually doing in their play? And these three questions, um, will really be something that you have to consider in some detail in order to take the superhero play forward in your setting, because we can understand what's going on with children, but if we don't take the adults along with us, um, then it all gets a bit lost. And this is highly likely that you will have adults in your setting that have a range of different views. So some will be very anti superhero play, some will be very for it, and some will just be kind of pretending it's not really happening. And therefore the children will get very different responses to the play that I'm going to be saying to the adults. And can we get an opportunity to think together? So where does it all fit in, uh, children's learning? So done here is just organize some aspects of, of social learning into the kind of building blocks. So the, uh, first building block on the left there, um, starts with attachment is kind of our, our bread and butter. We're as early as professionals. We're very, um, knowledgeable and, and know a lot in, in terms of different aspects of attachment and some of those very early, um, toddler type things, um, around boundaries, et cetera, and all that stuff. In the second box where we've got, uh, peer relationships, et cetera, um, that's where children are starting to try and make greater sense of the world. Um, and in particular the relationships that they're engaged with, whether that's, um, other children the same age or whether that's adults. And it's very confusing. So there's a lot of, um, energy and time that children spend trying to work out. How come those rules apply like that here, but not like that there. So for example, um, there are lots of our rules that are about context. So, uh, a typical example would be, uh, again, taking our own, uh, grandchildren. Um, the rule that their parents have is there are no suites between meals. Mm-Hmm. Except on a grandma day. Yeah, that's true, because grandmas, grandmas let that happen. So, mm-hmm. And, and that's okay as long, as long as we're upfront about it. But what the children are having to learn is this is a rule which I originally was non-negotiable, and now I'm discovering their exceptions. And that's when it all gets very muddy and complicated, which is how life is. So, so what I was suggesting in using this, uh, this, this block thing is that, um, understanding about the dilemmas and the way in which rules apply in different situations is something children have to play with a lot. And that superheroes is a fantastic contact in that. And the other two that I just mentioned from those, one is the identity bit. You know, if you are in a superhero costume, whatever that is, if it's just a cloak or if it's, um, you know, just a bit of material, it doesn't matter. But for you, it is a superhero, um, costume, then you can be somebody different. You can show different aspects of your identity and you can play with, um, bringing different bits of you forward Mm-Hmm. See what that feels like. And then finally, the, the other one is this idea about standing in somebody else's shoes. What is it like to do that role play thing about seeing the world from somebody else's perspective? And that's crucial to us having successful relationships and being able to try and do some of the conflict resolution and trying to work through why might they think that's a good idea and to be able to articulate why you think something is a good idea yourself. Now, we know that pretend play is, is a very good thing. We know what's important about developing language, et cetera. The more detailed stuff is about, uh, negotiating changes and direction of play, shared meaning, and thinking about, um, starting to imagine what the outcome of decisions might be. Now, the major part, um, that we then want to think about is the way in which the world looks from somebody else's perspective. And this is a huge change to children's thinking as they, uh, start to explore their, their peer relationships. So, um, starting to stand in somebody else's shoes, think about what their intentions might be, which area of research. And somebody called, uh, Judy Dunn and her colleagues did a lot of, um, research into the way in which, um, children developed this thinking. And what Judy Dunn discovered was that lots of talk about feelings and thoughts and playing games, the whole pretend play stuff, um, but very much related to the language can help with this idea about how does somebody else see the world. And in terms of the way in which our lives go in early settings, that can feed in very nicely to a practical approach to, um, conflict resolution. So I put this in now before the actual superhero bit because I think it's something that links really nicely with the whole play experience and the language that children are using. It's a little process that you can consistently use and then help the children to take control of different parts. So particularly that bit about thinking about solutions, that would be the first bit we'd give to children. So whenever there's a conflict, they have this little pattern that they can work through. And it works in superhero play as well. So, something you might just want to think about, um, as a predictable and familiar way, um, to think about the whole, um, conflict process. So, um, superhero play in particular has, um, been around for a long time, and that's one of the core things that has made people think more about the developmental importance of it. Um, I'm old enough to remember playing cowboys and Indians, um, and I'm sure many of you played some kind of conflict game, um, whether it was spied, I can remember playing, um, the Man from Uncle that was the first time round, not the second time round. Um, so that play, that kind of, uh, conflict play has been around generation after generation. Uh, one of the first people in early years who started to explore this was Penny Holland. And her view was that if we ban it, if we say we cannot have this kind of, um, this kind of conflict play happening in our settings, um, then we're pushing it underground. It's going to happen anyway because developmentally it seems to be important. So her view was, let's, um, involve the adults. Let's have some, um, engagement from the adults and some sensitive guidance to make it work. Um, and this was, uh, particularly prevalent at a time where I can remember going through, um, in early years provision that there was no, um, conflict play allowed. There was no superhero play allowed, there was no gun play allowed. All of that was, um, banned effectively. So Penny Holland was a, a reaction against that. So, um, another person whose influence, um, on the my ideas about superhero plays being significant is said Diane Rich. And she particularly thinks about the storytelling aspect of, um, all the conflict play and thinking about children telling their story and valuing their play. Um, and then the one that has really shifted my thinking more recently is Stephen Papa and his book, rethinking Superhero and, uh, weapon Play really challenged me to think, um, about the, the purpose of this kind of play for young children. And he says, um, categorically that there's no evidence for increased, uh, aggression for children who are playing, um, superhero games and, and conflict play. Um, which is very much one of the concerns of a lot of practitioners. But there, there really is no ev evidence that that's the case. In fact, I would be suggesting that probably the reverse is true, that children use their pretend play to play out some of these experiences that they see and that they, um, see others indulge in and don't quite understand and are trying to, to work through. And the other thing that that really struck a chord with me, um, was this idea about superhero play being related to children's developmental awarenesses around moral dilemmas. So starting to work out that actually, even though pretty much up until that point adults are telling you that things are either right or wrong, um, then the, um, the, the idea that there is a gray area, that there isn't always a right or wrong starts to emerge. So if we think about those building blocks, we're thinking about children beginning to demonstrate, um, superhero play in terms of copying often between two and three, but actually using the play, um, to develop their thinking usually starts to come in round about three to four, and then the more complex elements that they will come in, um, from five onwards. Um, but the more we involve and support children with their thinking, scaffold their thinking, the easier it is for children to access these more complex ideas, um, as they come across them. Um, in terms of morality, the, the things that are uppermost in, in trying to work things out is the classic thing about it's not fair. So that morality of justice, so it's all very well to say these are the rules. Um, but if, if we see that some, uh, more biscuits than our, or crisp than our more bits of carrot than us, or, uh, more of the bricks than ours, then that's not fair. So how do we work out the fairness? And we can do that with things that are easy, easy to count out, but then getting time when you are, uh, time from an adult when, when you are feeling upset and time from an adult when you're celebrating something, how do we measure that? How the fairness in that? Um, so that applying fair treatment to a range of situations is something that we have to play with as human beings and work out, um, how we apply fair treatment. And then the dilemmas bit is, it's only well having the moral principles and the moral reasoning, but it's then how do we make those part of our everyday life? So if the moral principle is respect for life, what about that wasp that comes along and is just about to sting somebody? Is it, is it okay to swap that wasp? Um, or should we be respecting his life? And of course there will be different views. There is no right or wrong answer. And that's the kind of thinking that children need to be exploring and thinking through. Um, and it gives you that opportunity to then think about justifying your own actions and thinking through, reflecting on your own actions in a different way as well. Um, another dimension to this that was, um, highlighted by Tina Malty who did some research about, um, older children, 6-year-old children's, um, moral awareness and moral motivation. And what she discovered was that actually this is something that's really important in peer status. Um, so how important, how you are in the hierarchy of, um, the, the group of children and those peer relationships, whether you're seen as somebody that's gonna be playing with somebody that, that other children want to be with, or whether you're somebody that gets, uh, left on on the periphery. So I think even on that deeper level between children, although they wouldn't consciously be thinking about that, it's something that we know is important on that level too. So what do we know, um, about the superheroes that are around? Well, you might be a bit surprised to know that. Um, the first superheroes, uh, I'm aware of are, um, number jacks, who as a program, uh, quite young children, it's, uh, children's CBBs program that, uh, many two and three euros will be familiar with, sometimes children even younger. Now, in terms of superheroes, um, these characters, um, have the baddies and they have the goodies and they have, um, the baddies causing a problem. And then they have key bit, which is about restoring natural oil. Start to get this little story structure about there are characters playing particular roles. There's a problem that has to be solved, there's a bit of working out how to solve it, and then everything at the end is resolved. Now that resolution is something that often in children's early superhero play within our early settings is quite difficult for them to manage. And I would be suggesting that it's one of the first things that we might want to think about if we are trying to help and support, um, our young children have satisfying, uh, superhero play. So just before the tidy up time, it's about getting in there and helping resolution, um, and get things back into a, into a control order or sorting something out in some way or another, um, before they have to leave it with that unsatisfying feeling. Um, developmentally, as children get a bit fed up and bored with number Jacks 'cause it's, um, it's quite predictable and for them and it's not as exciting, um, one of the other characters they might move on to is Fu Tom. Now we get another technique starting to be introduced with Fu Tom, which is about a really definite and significant, um, signal that tree fu Tom is changing a normal little boy. As you see him at the beginning of the program as a normal character, he goes on gate and he becomes a cartoon character. He then becomes Tree fu Toms this, uh, mechanism for signaling to children. This is an ordinary boy, but he's going into his pretend play thinking when he goes into the cartoon world. Now, Fu Tom was originally designed, um, to engage children who were watching program. So I don't know if you're familiar with Fu Tom or not, but he requires, um, the audience watching at home to engage in a series of physical, uh, moves in a particular sequence in order to get his power. Um, and a lot of those movements are about in the midline, which is particularly good for children who are struggling with their coordination and, and maybe, um, have some dyspraxic difficulties. Um, as far as the content of the Tree Tom stories are concerned, um, there are lots of emo of moral emotional issues, lots of, uh, very dory lines and themes. Um, and at the end of each, um, program, the end of each story, there's, uh, a little reflection, uh, conversation happens between some of the characters where they explicitly say, um, you know, things might be, um, might be sorted out like this, or I wouldn't have happened in the same way if I'd done this or that. Little bit about thinking through, um, what you might be, um, doing differently next time. Children often then move on to pole patrol. Um, and again, we've got that a very clear signal about when the, the pups change from their ordinary popness in heroes as they go through a lift. Um, and then the, um, the, the team is put together depending on what the, the problem is that they're going to go and sort out. So we get this very strong message about the, the superheroes being a force for good. So both through Fu Tom and Paul and Rider, who's the little boy as, as part of the, the team. He's the one that starts to put together the team depending on what the problem is. And again, it's highlighting different strengths and skills in the way people, um, can collaborate and work together with the problem solving. They also, at this point get an introduction of slogans and slogans can be quite, um, quite important. Um, so the, the Pole Patrol one is no job too big, no puppets too small. Um, all these things have an American accent when I do them, but, um, not all of them are American, but this one obviously is. Um, so we get, um, again, the same kind of story structure which children can follow, and we get the, um, things going wrong for some of the pups and then them having to, to sort it out and, and work through what, what's occurring and, uh, how it can be resolved. And sometimes one of the pups who hasn't been one of the team comes in and, and sorts things out. So there's a lot of the problem solving approaches and lots of, um, helping and supporting and, and collaborating. Um, as children get older, uh, we get into some of the, um, I possibly what, um, adults would start to see as a little. Transformers have been around for quite a long time. Um, they get quite bad press because, um, when adults have a look at the television programs, um, it always just looks like lots of fighting. Um, but the backstory, and this is one of the the reasons I think it's important for us as practitioners to do a bit of research into the superheroes that your children are currently interested in, whoever that happens to be. And if you, if you dig a little bit deeper, um, with Transformers, they are definitely a, a force for goods. They're working on humans, um, and they are trying to, uh, battle with evil humans that are trying to do bad, bad stuff, um, in the world. We also get a new theme coming up with Transformers, which is, um, about the whole Save the Planet type of, of story, which is around searching for energy sources and trying to, um, move things forward. Now, there is a marketing element to all of this, of course, um, uh, but there's no reason why we can't take some of the structures around some of these stories and use them, um, in the way that our children, uh, play and take part in, in the stories and the storytelling. So we don't have to go down the route of, uh, having all the characters there. We can, we can transform them into other superheroes, uh, ninja Turtles, another group that get a really bad name. But interestingly, the, the addition in terms of, of what children are, are being exposed to with Ninja Turtles is the much stronger, um, character, um, character stories if you like, and the, and the different roles that different characters play, again, it, it's, um, good overcoming evil. Um, all superheroes will have that, um, uh, element to it. So if your children are doing the, uh, bang, bang, you're dead stuff, uh, they're not playing superheroes because none of the superheroes actually kill anybody. So, in a gentler way, that's something that, um, as adults being play companions with the children we would want to challenge. Um, and if we know the backstory, then we can have some of those conversations with children about, oh, how likely is it, um, that Leonardo would actually do that or lafa do that. Um, and it also gives us an opportunity, um, to be thinking through, um, some of the, uh, moral stances and some of the, the detail about, um, how these characters play out, um, in what is the world in their, um, in their, their television program or, or film or whatever it happens to be. Um, and I would suggest that it's worth, um, exploring particularly with some of the, um, earlier superheroes earlier as in, uh, appropriate for younger children, some of the comic strips and, and enabling children to sequence the story and make up their own stories along similar kind of, and just to have the stories read to them and, and bits highlighted to them, um, that fit with the principles that we're, we're trying to focus on. However, rangers, the number of times I've had practitioners and teachers in school complain about, oh, they're playing Power Rangers again, and happened to be sitting, uh, with one of my grandchildren when he wanted to watch Power Rangers. And I thought, well, I probably shouldn't be mourning about this unless I've had a good look. And I watched Pearl Rangers several times with him, and I watched him watching Pearl Rangers. And what I saw, first of all was these are awesome teenagers. And for young children, teenagers are just the best. They are role models. They are, uh, something to aspire to, they're bigger, so they know better, but they're not quite adults. They're not quite that distant and not quite that level of responsibility. So there is something very attractive for young children around, um, around the whole teenage thing. Now, what happens with the, the Power Rangers, uh, there have been several storylines, but the current one is, uh, very much related to the saving the planet bit. And they have to, uh, they're on this mission to find the inner gems, and they go through all sorts of different adventures in order to try and get these, um, gems together, um, so that the, the power can be, um, retained by in, in India. So, um, the special powers that they are allotted and given and, um, allocated for different, um, storylines, um, are very clearly to be used for good and not for any personal gain. And there are a couple of bits where, um, the, one of the characters will use the, uh, the powers in a way that that's not, uh, along with the rules, if you like. Um, and that is explained and brought through. And in, in once episode that I saw, one of the prayer rangers was, uh, sort of ostracized from the rest of the group. Um, and then that all had to be, uh, resolved and he had to explain what he'd done and why he'd done it and why it wasn't right. And everything had to be, um, natural order zoomed and everything brought back. Um, so all of these elements are very important, and if we think about that little phrase there that says, um, powers can't be used for persevering or escalating a fight, and that's a, a key point that not many of our young children pick up on with regards to power, power ranges. And again, that's that bit about, um, knowing some of the backstory to be able to have the discussion and ask pertinent questions with children. Um, you'll be familiar with, of course, uh, Spider-Man who's, uh, moral principle is this bit about power must be used wisely. Um, and he has this additional element of if it's, if power is not used wisely, then bad stuff can happen. Um, and it can be very unwanted consequences. Uh, Superman, uh, everybody's favorites. Um, his view is that, do you know what, most human beings are pretty good, really, but not all the time. Um, so we all do bad things sometimes we all do things that we shouldn't. But at the end, um, in Superman stories, everything should, the good nature and triumph and everything should be resolved. Um, Batman gets a mention in there as well as this, this element that children don't always pick up on, but in the superhero stories, um, nobody get, nobody dies. It's all resolved at the end. So as we explore the superhero stories, what we start to understand is that there are some key common elements, um, which are very useful to use as children start to get into complex stories. We all get the, uh, main character, we all get the idea that there's a purpose, um, not convinced that all children recognize what the, um, moral stance and moral principle is. And I think that's something that we can help with to enable them to use the play purposefully for what is appropriate developmentally for them at a particular time. Um, we know the stuff about there's a, a main enemy or an emesis, um, and the special powers is a nice easy one, but if you add in some conditions there, that can be, um, quite a, a useful addition to the, to the storyline and enabling children to be in situations that are a little bit challenging, but they can't use their special powers. Hmm, how am I gonna do that? Um, and then thinking about what's the level of, of dilemma that our children are ready to deal with now. So it may be that in their early stories, um, the variety of solutions that are possible are quite small, maybe two, three, uh, but then you can increase the number of, uh, or the complexity of the dilemma, and therefore the number of solutions. And we can increase the, uh, the, the changes that we put towards the, the, the problem solving process about, um, that gray area in the middle and just, uh, you know, how difficult can we make it by adding in, um, additional conditions, et cetera. So those key elements have to be there as part of our, uh, superhero story. Um, but what we need to make sure that we keep in our central, in our thinking is this idea that this play, it is special play. It is in addition to the benefits of, um, pretend play and that imaginative play, it's another dimension which has a lot of possibility, um, around social learning and, and in this idea and about being able to see somebody's somebody else's perspective and therefore the whole problem solving bit. And that feeds into, um, lots of elements, self-regulation of resilience, um, rules and consequences, and being able to work out, um, that morality about right and wrong, and how things, um, fit together. So if we think about the, the moral awareness bit, um, we shouldn't take it for granted that children can identify what the dilemmas are. Um, quite certainly around about four or five children are still talking about alums as being right or wrong. Um, in play situations, they can sometimes have the debate, they can sometimes have the argument, but this idea that there is no right answer is quite a complex idea for children. And something that, um, it's certainly in the first instance I would suggest, is, uh, really worth exploring in their play. Um, the reconciliation between superheroes is quite a, a useful theme to play with as well. Um, superheroes, uh, inevitably get into, uh, fights with each other. They are, they're not always on the same side. Um, but how do they bring it back together again so that in the next episode, if you like, or in the next storyline, they could be on the same site and helping each other. And, and this leads to this changed awareness and this, um, opening up of children's thinking, um, and their ability to start to consider, uh, compromise. But the overwhelming bit in any story is we have to hold true to the good overcomes evil bit. Um, later on, other things may happen, but in EYSI would suggest we do have to, uh, stick with that as much as we can. Um, as I said, when we get to the sort of four to five bit or children who are very skilled in, um, personal, social, emotional development. So superheroes is, is not just for, um, children who are just beginning on these adventures and pretend to play and getting to that point that they start to use phrases about, about other characters being nearly good or nearly bad, and characters who are good sometimes and not so good other times. And starting to work with that thinking. And it's very much about child led play. The superhero context is very much about us as adults getting in there, being a play companion and enabling children to play with that thinking. Um, we're not taking over the play. We're letting them give us the phrases, hear their thinking so that we can then, uh, scaffold it within the context of, um, this, uh, moral awareness and this, this sense of right wrong and fairness, um, and how things can be worked out through compromise and, and negotiation. Writing is a, a high priority in, in any years, but I wouldn't suggest that hero play is directly a writing activity. I think it needs to be a, um, a play activity. It needs to be a framework for exploring ideas with adult support, and that we try and say, gosh, what could we do? What are the possibilities? But what would happen if on all of those kind of questions hero play quite early on is Bish Bash Bosch? No Resolution doesn't feel satisfying, but I'll keep repeating it because I like to be with those other people. Um, and I think our job is to notice that, that repetitive pattern and see if we can help to move it forward. And I would suggest the first step is thinking along the lines of what are the, the, the possible solutions. Um, I've just had a look at the, uh, tales toolkit, story structure, and I, and I just think like Case and I met at that, that conference, and we, we were having a chat. It was, it was like a meeting of minds because we were talking exactly the same things. The, the superheroes and the, the key bits of the superheroes stories. And, um, superhero world, if you like, uh, fits really nicely with the Tales toolkit, story structure. So the characters, um, and you can embellish those characters, you know, special powers, all that kinda stuff, thinking clearly about the setting. Um, and that transition from real into end, we're thinking about Tree Food, Tom, and we're thinking about some, some of the early, um, signals with the Paw Patrol, et cetera. So it may be that your children want to explore that, being able to go between those two worlds, between the re and the pretend. Um, but it may also be that, um, they want to be in a completely imagining able to explore what that's about. Um, and we get different settings in superhero play. We get the superheroes who live alongside the humans, but are hidden. Um, and we get the, the superheroes that are totally in a pretend world, enabling children to play with those ideas, um, can make it more inclusive of a wider range of children as well. Um, the, the idea about identifying the problem and having a problem to solve is something that sometimes needs prompted, um, the children. So sometimes it's just about the goodies have got to get the baddies, um, but then it's worth exploring, Howies been doing, then how come their baddies. Um, and then as dilemmas occur, uh, working out what might be, what might be a way of moving that forward once we start to, uh, reflect with the children on, um, some of the solutions, it's just useful for them to, to build a, a stock of, um, possible compromises, possible ways to work things out. So typical ones would be about, um, outwitting the villains. So how, how, how we beat the baddies before, um, what are the strategies that might work, um, but then there are different aspects, um, that are worth just paying attention to in children's play. So is it always the same child or children who have been the goodies and can we get them to swap roles sometimes? Um, for some children, that experience of being the bad for a little while, uh, can give a completely different, um, perspective on the play and vice versa. Um, it's often the case that children character, they want to be to displaying. So the badie often looks like the effective one because he does a lot of bish bash bsch, if that's all you think the superhero play is about. So being able to be in the goodies side for a little while can, uh, change the perspective. Um, and there are all sorts of possibilities of course, to, to play with once you start getting into the characters like that. Um, working together, what happens if you put different, um, special powers together? Um, can you find out about superheroes that have similar, uh, perspectives on the world? Can we combine them? What, what would happen if is the big question in, in all of the, um, pretend play and superhero play stuff. Uh, what roles do, um, uh, what roles are appear in a group? So for a variety of different, um, approaches to the world, if you like, there are characters within the superhero world, and you can explore it for, as, you know, in to whatever depth you want. But, um, if you're looking for a particular influence on the play, then it is worth, uh, looking at what, what are the characteristics of the, the superheroes that we might want to introduce into play? Try and change the way in which, uh, the play evolves. But you would only be doing that I would suggest with children who are very familiar with, um, particular characters and who are, um, quite experienced in their superhero play. So typical, um, put this in just as a, a sort of reminder for you. Generally speaking, the story is based on, uh, bodies taking resources, people or territory. Um, and then the resolutions are really about either being outwitted, overpowered or, and then really nice one that very seldom is demonstrated unless there's a little bit of scaffolding from the adult. Is the body actually being reformed and brought back into the, into the fold of the goodies, um, unable to move forward. So from your own perspective, um, try to, to fit in an awful lot in, in our time. But, um, hopefully I've raised a few bits of thinking for you. Um, I'm thinking that it's highly likely that most of you that are taking part in this, uh, webinar are interested in superheroes, or at least, um, intrigued by how you might use them more. So I've put some questions there about, um, so what, so what next? If you are convinced, who else do you need to convince? And in my experience, the group that are, um, most, most difficult, but most necessary to bring on board are parents. If professional practitioners feel challenged by children doing the superhero play, how much more so is that true of parents? And, you know, if you like, the dilemma for parents is, should I be letting this happen? Should I be stopping it? What's it about? And we have professional knowledge that we can share. We have a different perspective on the superhero play that might not be obvious, um, if you're just sitting watching it or if you're, you're trying to stop your children do it. Um, and being able to talk it through. I did a, um, an evening session for, um, a setting down in, uh, west Sussex, and it was for parents and practitioners together. And there was a, a parent walked in and I felt the atmosphere in the room change. Um, it was a dad, and as he, as he walked in, and I just looked at a colleague who very quickly came up to me and just handed me a little piece of paper that said, um, this is a dad that's very anti superhero play and doesn't want us to let it happen. Um, so I was expecting a, a lot of challenge and, um, was more than happy to, to do that. We had a discussion, I went through my, my presentation and we, we talked about different aspects of superhero play. Um, and we had a discussion at the end and he said he was going away to have a think about it because he hadn't thought about or perceived that there could be such a lot of complex learning available through the medium and through the vehicle of using superheroes. Um, and when I last heard he was actually supporting his children to, um, take part in the setting, um, and really giving the, the practitioner some great ideas about ways to, to follow on and to move things forward. So, you know, even those that you think are going to be most resistant. Um, if we take it from a learning perspective and we really think through, uh, the developmental, um, aspects of it and the the way in which this kind of play can be useful and helpful for children, um, then we get some surprises. And, uh, I've surprised myself in, um, in how my attitudes have changed and I feel I've only just scrap scratched the surface. I, I'm aware of, um, colleagues and, and who know so much more about the whole superhero world than I I could ever dream of. Um, but what I get when I have conversations with them is that their understanding of the themes, the, uh, storylines, the ways in which, uh, the superheroes interact with each other and, and with problems and dilemmas is just fascinating. Um, and I could go on talking about it for ages, but I, I ought to stop and see if there are some questions that have come up. Um, so all I would say is be giving and selfless. That's fantastic. Kay. Um, so one of the questions that came up, um, Charlotte asked, which age are children aware of superheroes to start with? I think that depends mostly on, uh, what they're seeing in television, and that's, that's usually the first place Mm-Hmm. Um, and it depends what you're talking about in terms of superheroes. So a number, jacks was the first one that I came across with our grandchildren, and they would've been about 18th to two by then. That's great. Um, Sarah's asked a question, she said, how do weapons come into the play and how does this relate? Yes. That's a big question. Yeah. And it's five tonight. Um, okay. So, uh, the, the weapon play bit, um, you, there is nothing better than a stick Mm-Hmm. For all sort Oh yes. For all sorts of different things. Um, and you, you can ban guns till you're blue in the face, but you know, everybody carries in in their hand. You know, if you put your two, your index finger and the next finger straight out, that's a gun. Mm-Hmm. So what, um, what the issue is around the, the weapon play bit is, I think there's a huge challenge for us as adults to say, what do we think about weapons? Now again, you know, your life experience challenges you with this thinking. The, the experience I had that really brought me up short and made me really dig deep around this was, uh, working in Germany with, uh, forces children and, um, all the children's moms and dads used guns. In fact, the children for one period of time while I was out in Germany, were escorted in buses to school with an armed escort. So I couldn't be saying in the classroom, guns are bad and it's only baddies that have them, because that's gives a very poor message about the children's parents. So you start dig a bit deeper and say, well, actually it's not the weapons that are the problem, it's what happens with the weapons, and it's what's happening in somebody's head and the way in which they're thinking about it. So I think what we have to try and look at, particularly in EYFS, is that there is a, there's a process, you know, picking up a stick and having great fun with a stick is fantastic. It's not long before that stick becomes a weapon description. So there are different developmental elements we want to be thinking about. So one is what's the size of this and can the child control it? And then what is it that we are setting out around that play, which is about use of weapons, and we have to have some rules. Children are fine with rules. Mm-Hmm. They are especially fine with rules in play if they're involved in making them up. Mm-Hmm. So, um, for example, I, um, with some, uh, children roundabout, sort of three-ish, um, playing with, with weapons and playing with, um, things that they'd made, um, we sat down and said, okay, so what are the rules about these? Because one was a stick, and I'm thinking somebody's eye's gonna get poked out in a minute. So they started to make rules about, well, you can't cross that line. Mm-Hmm. The goodies are all on that side. The badies are on this side and you can't cross that line. Um, but we can shoot you with our, with our stakes, et cetera. So it's helping the children to go between that pretend world and the real world, and not to get hurt within it, but the more we can give them control and the mechanism for being able to work that through, the more effective it is for the learning that we are taking part in. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, because I, when I was early years, um, coordinator in school, I had a teacher and she did that. She got a group of children together and created the rules and it made a big difference. And like, like you said, because they've made the rules themself, then they knew them, they remembered them, they displayed them, they talked about them, they amended them. So it worked. And I think what what that does is it really, it's that idea of framework for thinking, you know, we, we can be simplistic about play and we can say, oh, they're playing goodies and baddies, and they'll get bored with it after a while. But actually if we take in this developmental aspect about, no, it's changing awareness in children's thinking. Mm-Hmm. And it's enabling them to work through some of these really challenging stuff. I mean, I don't know about you, but if you just look in that middle block intentions and rules, you know, I still have lots of problems with what people's intentions are. Sometimes I think, oh, whatcha trying to do? Whatcha I don't get it. I don't know what you're talking about. And then are certain rules that I'll think what's, that's just, you know, that's just daft. Why, why would I adhere to that rule? And, and as adults, we are still challenging those sorts of Yeah, it's true. Um, you haven't got any more questions coming through. Kay. It's been absolutely brilliant tonight. It's been really good all the way to, I've had comments coming through from people saying about how interesting it was and how great the stuff that you were saying was. So yeah, we've had some brilliant comments and I know that the first time I heard you speak, it really made me think about the fact that I didn't really know what I was talking about when it came to superheroes. I know the names of characters, but not much more. So, yeah, I think there's a whole of stuff that people are gonna go away tonight and really think about how they go into school and use the superhero play with children. So, so a big thank you, Kay. It's been really good. Absolute pleasure. And I'm delighted. Yeah. So, no, it's been great. But yeah, I think, I think that's it for tonight. So yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Merry Christmas to everybody as well. Hope it all have a peaceful and happy holiday. That's It. So Merry Christmas everybody.