WEBVTT - This file was automatically generated by VIMEO. Please email info@talestoolkit.com to report problems. Hello everybody, and welcome to tonight's webinar. Um, if you can hear us and all the sound and the picture is okay, then if you just type a quick message just to say hello, we know who we've got. We've got lots and lots of people in tonight, which is great. And I'm really excited about this webinar tonight with John. Oh, they are. Look, Kathleen's in. We're we're on, John. It's all good. Yeah. All happening. Yeah, we're happening. Um, so yeah, so, um, just to do a quick introduction, um, I'm really excited tonight about tonight's webinar and we're a massive awe of what John's achieved. And, um, to be honest, at this point, what I would normally do is I would chat through some of the things, um, in terms of whether he's a speaker or an author and the kind of work that John's been doing. But there's such a massive, massive, long list that I'm just gonna say a little bit when I met John. Um, and I first heard John speak at the early education event in London. And for me, I think it was just really inspiring. And I think that working in early years, you sometimes forget those long-term aims of what you're doing. And John's been working at the other end of things. John's a retired detective chief superintendent, um, and he worked as a police officer for almost 39 years. Um, and he was detective. He worked in serious crime and murder inquiries. Um, he was a licensed hostage negotiator, worked with abduction and with his colleague, he established the Violence reduction unit, um, which massively reduced knife crime in Scotland. Um, and so he's working with the children that we see at three and four coming out the other end. And with tell's toolkit, anyone who works with us, you all know that we talk a lot about relationships and how important they are and developing those interactions with children. And John can kind of see that from the other side, and he's been working down and seeing those really important relationships and how key they are in early years and all the way through. So, so I'm not gonna necessarily talk about all of your achievements, John. We've got a whole website with a massive list of them, but just want to say that I'm really excited about tonight's webinar and I know that people want to hear you speak. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna hand over to you to chat in a minute, but, but really, really excited to have you here tonight and thank you for coming out. So, okay. Yeah. Um, just a quick note to everybody. Um, so I'm gonna have a paper and pen here, and I'm gonna make a note of any questions that come through. So as John's talking, I can kind of field those questions out and give them back to John at the end. So, yeah, all good, John, all to you. Okay. Thanks for that. Okay. Yeah, this is, um, this is a bit new for me. Um, the technology people will know me, will, will, oh, that I'm not really a, I'm looking forward to that post technology age when I can actually just use a pen and a piece of paper. Mm-Hmm. Because I think really important. I really, I really like that. I, I never, um, uh, never lose that. I used to have, uh, a mentor who was a retired major journal in the Royal Marines, and he'd set his face against technology. Uh, um, uh, he on, he, he sadly died a couple of years ago, but he was 90. And, um, he would, uh, he would write, uh, to me in say, John, let's have lunch, uh, September the 15th, 12 o'clock at my place. And he would write in March and, and I would write back and say, great, see you then. And we would never be in touch again. And I would turn up at five to 12 in September and the lunch would be ready and he would be there. We didn't need that constant reassurance. So the idea of that is, um, the technology is a challenge for me. Um, although we, we need it, I'll say that. Anyway. So what I'd like to do, I suppose is, is, is, um, maybe just give you some idea of what I want to, what I'm gonna do if I can over the next 40 minutes or so. So I'll, I'll, I'll try and give some background, uh, um, about where we are, some introduction to it. We'll do some philosophy because I quite like philosophy, um, some context around it. Um, because that's, as Kate said, is, is I was about violence. So, you know, the notion of violence and violence prevention and, and children, some people find really difficult. Um, and then I'll, I'll speak about the evidence and there's lots of evidence and lots of research, um, and perhaps some personal reflections. Uh, and, and then I'll conclude with hope. Um, because if, if we don't have any hope, it's, um, it's hopeless. Uh, and, and, and I, I, I never want it to be that. So it may be worthwhile just to let you know what I'm not, uh, uh, and, and, and perhaps two of the most important things that I am, I, I'm, you'll know from the introduction, I, I'm not a health visitor. I don't claim to be, I'm not, not a teacher, not a social worker, not a civil servant. I'm, I'm, I'm certainly not an academic. Um, but I'm disruptive, um, under my grandfather. And you should never underestimate grandfathers. Um, we, we are formidable. But normally what I would do when, when I was, if I, if I were speaking in, in, um, the face-to-face, I would, I would normally ask a question and, um, and look for a show of hands and response. But, but that, that's not gonna work here. So, so I'm gonna make an assumption right at the outset, and, and I hope, I hope I'm right. If I'm not, then send some bold messages and, and tell me, uh, um, I'm gonna assume that everyone that's listening in this evening is a human. I'm gonna assume that everyone is somebody's son or daughter. Um, because over the years, I've found, uh, uh, in, in speaking about this, um, all over the world, I've spoken to humans. It's a hundred percent so far. Um, I've spoken to human social workers, human police officers, human doctors, human nurses, um, human teachers, human uh, victims, human offenders. That's the thing that I've always, I've always spoken to humans, and I think we've, we, we've tend to forgotten that we, we seem to be in the thro of, of business models that, um, are not particularly keen in the idea of humans, because humans are quite messy. And, and they're not. They're, they're no, um, they're not keen in that they like to keep things in, in, in straight lines. Um, because I, I'm sure you'll, you'll all know, uh, um, but for the avoidance of doubt, uh, we're born connected and we stay connected. And it's when we become disconnected that we have challenges. Most of the people that I dealt with as a police officer were disconnected. Um, most of the people who end up, uh, in jail or are homeless or, um, are disconnected, they're disconnected from others. Relationships are, are poor. And and that's really challenging. When we're born, mom has a spike in oxytocin, which is the cuddle hormone, the love hormone that Suzanne Zedi always speaks about, programming them to actually make connection with her baby to attach and a tune with their baby. And babies are programmed to connect. That's what human infants do. They, they, they are helpless. They need us. They need adults to look after them. Um, and when we don't do that, it, it can become, uh, something, something of a challenge. But in those systems that we operate in, as I said, they don't like human things. There are some places, for instance, in schools and, and care homes where there's a no touch policy, there are places where, um, if you did something that was, uh, um, in any way seen as human, it would be described as unprofessional. Um, and I think we have to get over that. So what I'd like to do and ask of you this evening is think not just about the profession that you're in, but think of yourself as a, a son or a daughter, a mom or a dad, a brother, or a sister, or aunt, or an uncle, a cousin, uh, uh, whatever. We're humans first. And that's what we are. And we need to remember that. And I always find it really interesting because there are, there are, in most organizations, the only department that ever is human in its title is the Human Resources Department. And I don't know about you, but that was there, there was an irony in that for me, um, because it is the most inhumane department ever with really good people in it, trying their very best, but absolutely sold in the idea of, of the system. Um, a, a, a very quick story. Uh, um, when I retired after 39 year service, I was given this a four certificate, which actually hangs in my wall, uh, uh, um, that said, thank you for your service. And it was signed by the chief constable. It was actually a, an electronic signature. I, I think he knew I didn't like electronic stuff, but he was doing that Anyway. But anyway, I had this, and I noticed the date was wrong on it. It was a year out because I joined in 1974. I joined Lark Shark in Ary in 1974, and that became Strat Cloud Police in 1975. So this certificate saved from 1975. So I, I, I wandered over to the, to the HR department and asked to speak to somebody, and I spoke to the team leader, and he said, um, when I said to him, I, I'm just retiring and, and, um, the date's wrong. And he said, are you sure? And I said, yeah, pretty certain I was there. Uh, uh, um, I said, I don't even think you'd have been born then, but I was there. So, so here was someone working in a system who didn't believe the face of experience standing in front of 'em that said, it was me that joined, and I'm telling you, this is mine and it's wrong. It's almost like that, that joke that used to have been the TV where the computer says no, because he went to the computer to confirm that it was right. And I had to, I had to tell him and, and correct him for it. So sometimes we get ourselves into systems, and the systems suck the humanity out of us. We don't realize it's happening, but we're so busy following the system that we don't actually think of, of, um, of that. And it's, it's, it's a challenge. It's, it's also true that if you look at person specs and, and job descriptions, the, the column in the left, the professional stuff, that'll always be there, loads of stuff, decisive, industrial, reliable, analytical, it'll have, you need a ba, an MSC, A-P-G-D-E, whatever it may be. Why is it we never have those other things there? Why don't we value caring, forgiveness, optimism, nurturing, tolerance, empathy, compassion, humor, which is a big one for me. Why don't we value that? I, I think perhaps we presume that if we're employing humans, they'll bring those attributes with them, and they do. But what happens is that system like the Borg and Star Trek starts to subsume them and take it to itself, and all of a sudden we forget that no one becomes a social worker to do it wrong. No one becomes a teacher to do it wrong. No one becomes a police officer to do it wrong. But that's what happens. So that, that's really important. So please, it's about humanity as far as I'm concerned. That's, that's where it is. So now, how, how did I get there? Um, so we sent an introduction. I was a cop for 39 years, and in Glasgow, uh, um, in particular, WW we had a real issue with violence. Uh, uh, it was a very violent place. Um, and we were very good at investigating murders, for instance. And, and if you imagine the violence that we have as that iceberg, then we were great at, um, chipping away at the top of the iceberg above the ocean, above the water line. We were really good at that. Our detection rate was 98%. It would never be a hundred percent, because we were always in the process of investigating murders, but we were making no difference at all to the, to the size of the iceberg, because as we chipped away at the top, the iceberg would just pop up a little. And so we realized that if you wanted to shrink the iceberg, you had to raise the temperature of the water. And that's about big things. Raising the temperature of the water is not about policing on its own. It's about big things like inequality. It's about things like gender equality, because if we don't fix violence against women, we'll never fix violence. It's about alcohol and our challenge with alcohol, our challenge with drugs, all of those big things that are there need, need to be dealt with. And when I speak about violence, I, I want to make it clear as well, that I'm speaking about bullying through to suicide and everything in between. Suicide is self-directed violence. Bullying is violence. If we only speak about violent crime, then we're only speaking about the responsibility of the police. Now we know, for instance, in domestic violence and violence against women. Very little of that's reported to the police. Are we saying that we're not interested in that until it becomes reported to the police? That's absurd. We have to deal with that, and we have to challenge that. And it's also true, and this was a light bulb moment for me that started to take me to early years. I had spoken to an economist called Alan Sinkler, who had carried out some work about, uh, the, the, the skills deficit in young people in, in employment in Scotland. And he had a, he had questioned a cohort of thousands of people of, of, uh, uh, employers, and asked them to list the things that were short in terms of skill in their young employees, and particularly in low paid jobs. And what I found was really quite surprising because communication, uh, sorry, uh, um, reading and writing literacy were, were actually okay. They weren't the issue. The issues were problem solving, relationships, communication, the, those are non-cognitive skills. Those are the skills that you acquire in early years. The ability to communicate, to negotiate, to compromise, to learn empathy, to establish and maintain relationships. You learn those best in the early years. Now, you can still learn them later, but it's not a, if you don't do it by then, it's too late, but it becomes far more difficult. And adolescents did learn those than it is in early years. And that's why the most important four years of a child's life are up to age three, because the things that happen then will have a real impact on them throughout their life. And then when we were thinking that along with violence, we learned that from research by a, a, a, a professor in Ottawa called Trembley, we, who we learned that we don't actually learn how to be violent. We learn how not to be violent. So we learn those other skills, coping skills like communication and negotiation, compromise, problem solving. We learn those skills. That means that violence becomes less of an option because we can deal with the challenges we face using other tools. But if we don't acquire those skills, then we'll be left with that aggression and violence. So lots of young men in Glasgow weren't choosing to be violent. They were violent because that's the only response they had to what was there. And they met other lots of young men around them that were exactly right. That, so that was, that's hugely important. So we learned how to, how not to be violent. And the most important four years of our life are up to age three. So understanding that we then found through World Health Organization, because violence is a health issue, we learned, learned about some work around adverse childhood experiences that have been conducted by, um, Vincent Felli and Robert Anda in the States. Um, now I'll give a real caveat to the end of the ACS book, and there is a big caveat, which will be the most important part of it. But what we found was, um, felli had been working for Kaiser Permanente, which is a, a big, uh, uh, insurance company. And he had been doing some work in obesity and finding that there were some of his patients doing very well and others not doing so well. So he tried to find out why that, why the ones who weren't doing well. So he started to look at what happened in their early years. And what he found was, was really quite startling. He found that in those early years, their childhood experience, and he listed eight of them, that if people experienced those things, they would have a significant impact in their life course. They would induce toxic stress that would have a real, real problem for them as as, as they grew older. And those are the adverse childhood experiences that, that he would, he would refer to. So, abuse, physical, emotional, all of the, all of the things that are there and, and, and physical and emotional neglect, household dysfunction, incarceration, all of those things have an impact on the child, a real impact in how they cope with things. But to remind you all that I'm speaking to humans, think of your own early childhood and think of some of the adversity that perhaps you faced. The, the, that we, we will all have faced some adversity, all of us. Um, so it's worth bearing that in mind. The good thing about ACS is it allows us to have this con conversation about trauma and why it was there. And when we learned this about these young men and and adverse childhood experiences, it, it, it started to intuitively feel, feel right, that this was something that, that made sense, this notion of, of, um, stress and living with us, uh, toxic stress all the time. And, and that toxic stress that he speaks about. He only spoke about eight adverse childhood experiences, but there are many, many more we think, uh, that have not been dis defined as that poverty, for instance, discrimination, community disruption, those ones that are described. And, and, and this slide as, as been, uh, you know, community, uh, uh, um, adverse effects, adverse community, uh, effects. They have a, they have a huge impact on us. And, and it's that idea that, you know, stress, stress is okay. We, we, we don't mind stress. Stress is, um, fine. I mean, there's some stress tonight for me, making sure this works. It's a positive stress. There's that sort of tolerable one where something happens and, and, and it's a real drama. Your car breaks down, something happens, you get fright. It's that tolerable stuff that's a real, uh, um, real challenge for you. But it's short-lived, and you have good relationships around you that help buffer that. But there's a toxic stress, and that toxic stress is prolonged, and there's a, a lack of protective relationships around you to deal with that. So the important thing to remember about ACEs, because they get discussed more and more now, adverse childhood experiences are not a predictor of outcomes. They're an indicator of increased risk. So the idea that you can say if someone had four adverse childhood experiences, therefore they require this input or this intervention is a nonsense. It's not, and it can't be like that. There are some people who can have 7, 8, 9 adverse childhood experiences and be absolutely fine. There are others who can have one adverse childhood experience, and it can be devastating for them in their life. So we have to keep acs. acs are about trauma, and they help us understand it. They help us discuss it, which is far more important, and discuss it in a way that everyone can understand. So we're not just speaking to each other. It's really, really important that we, that, that we remember that. Um, there was also some work around, um, this sense of coherence. This was by Aaron Antonovsky and what Antonovsky had done, Antonovsky had had found a cohort of people who had been children or had been born in the camps during the Holocaust, and he followed them into adulthood. And what he found was that, as you would expect, the vast majority didn't have good relationships. They had poor wellbeing, poor health, mental health, physical health, lots were not doing well, but there were some who were doing very well and doing really well. And so he had a look to them, and he tried to understand what they had in common, and he called it a sense of coherence, that they had three things in common. The first was that they understood the world was structured, it was predictable and explicable. They felt that they had the internal resources to meet the demands of the world. And they recognized those demands as challenges worthy of investment. Without that sense of coherence, people were living with toxic stress. Now, if you think of that sense of coherence in relation to let's say, uh, uh, the, the, the Daily Mail headline that says, prison is so easy, people would rather be in prison. Men would rather be in prison often, and some women, because in prison, their world is structured, it's predictable, it's explicable. They can cope with the things that are there, and they know the challenges that are coming, and they can deal with 'em. But if they're not in prison, if they're on the street, they'll be homeless, lonely, alcohol, drugs, violence, that's stressful. So that's why people would rather be in and think in terms of children. If you're, if you're a child who you don't know, when you go home from school today, if you're gonna be fed, if your house is gonna be warm, if your mom's gonna be there, if your dad's going be there, if he's going to be sober, if he's gonna be violent, if he's gonna be aggressive, yet that you've got your little sister to look after, or your big brother's gonna be there, or that uncle that comes in and is really violent when he is in the house, your world's not structured or predictable or explicable, and you can't cope with the stuff that's there. You are living with that toxic stress. And there are lots and lots of children today living with that toxic stress. And often for those children, the only safe environment they have will be a school or a nursery. And the only consistent adults in their life over the adults, they meet in the school, in the nursery. And so those roles take on an absolute new meaning. It's not about teaching technical skills, it's about being a consistent human and a con consistent adult for some kids who need it. There's a notion sometimes when we're, we're trying to make changes that we look for, um, big things to happen. We're never happy with just little things happening. We need to improve things by a hundred percent or 90%, or 40% or 30%. We're never happy with anything else. And Leo, when he's speaking about history, says that it's made up of an infinitely large number of infinitesimally small actions. And this, this fellow here, i i, is my hero, um, because this is a small action. This is Tianmen Square in the mid eighties. Um, I, I, I know I can't see you all, but I presume some of you weren't even here then. But anyway, trust me, I was around in those days. And, um, Tianmen Square, there had been a student demonstration on some scale, and it had been quelled by, uh, um, the police and, and the military. And a few days after that, the square was empty, but tanks rolled into the square. And, um, this man decided that he wanted to do something about that. That he wanted to do something. Now, all he did was stand in front of the tank. Now, if, if you watch it on YouTube, you'll see the tank reversing and trying to get around him, and he just moves to the left or the right and, and stays in front of the tank, he eventually climbs on top of the tank and speaks to the human inside it. But now that there's no, there was no strategy for that, no process, um, there were, there were certainly no risk assessment for it. I would suggest he just thought, I need to start where I'm, and do what I can. And that's often, I think, the position that we find ourselves in when our, in our everyday jobs. Start where we are and do what we can. Don't worry about all the big stuff. Just be only what's in front of you. If you help one that day, that's fabulous. Make it better for one person. That that's a good, that's a good thing to do. I think. I, I, I always think the best thing about this fellow is, is you'll know he has, he has two shopping bags with him. And I, I've got this, I've got this idea, um, not founded in any, any real knowledge or evidence, but I've got this wonderful notion that perhaps his wife's back in a flat somewhere saying he left here maybe an hour ago to go to the shops. What happened to him? And he'll come back in and say, I'm sorry, I'm late, darling. I, I had to stand in front of some tanks. And, uh, it wasn't easy. Uh, so I can imagine that that conversation being quite interesting. I, I think too, it's good to remind people that sometimes we need to stand in front of the tanks. Sometimes we need to do that thing. We need to be brave enough to do that. And the other thing that we should remember is sometimes we are actually the tank. Sometimes we are the obstruction. Sometimes it's us personally that is, and we, we need to, we need to accommodate that possibility and not think it's always, it's always someone else. Uh, I I, I like the idea of, of what, what's happened. If, if you use drugs as an example, for instance, in drug interdiction, we're always talking about war on drugs. Um, we used to have a a a a Scottish Crime and Drugs Enforcement Agency, and about 350 officers and staff. And of that 353 people, three, were responsible for prevention. The rest were responsible for interdiction. So we are an island that doesn't grow the poppy. We don't grow kakoa. We, you know, so why is it we have so many drugs here? Because we've spent all our time on war and interdict, uh, an interdiction. We've done so much on the supply end. We've done little with the demand end. We've done little with why it is people actually want drugs. And I've worked with people who are recovering addicts, and, and the the most informative thing I've ever heard them say is they say to you, drugs are a problem. But to the addict, the drug is the solution. And we need to be of that in mind. We need to think how we're dealing with that. And that's sometimes about those early years where people learn those skills that allow them to make good decisions about themselves. So they don't become alcoholics, they don't become drug addicts. If you think about your own adolescence and what you did in adolescence, now, I'm sure most of you'll be absolutely wonderful, but I bet you there's a few of you out there who do your adolescences, were a bit close to the edge. I, I, I mean, confession, because I know you'll keep it secret. I was quite close to the edge a few times. So what we need to do is make sure we give people the skills that notion. And when I worked and we set up the violence deduction unit car, and I were always speaking like this, sometimes you have to jump off the cliff and build the wings in the way down, but be confident you know how to do that. And this quote by, um, Roosevelt, we can't always build a future for our youth, but we can build our youth for the future. And there's a, there's a great quote. Well, we get quotes, and I, I'm gonna have to read it because I never, I never get it right. And it's, it's from Einstein. Uh, Albert Einstein said, the intuitive mind is a sacred gift. And the rational mind is a fruitful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. So what it means is the right side of the brain is the one that develops first. And the right side of the brain is the, is is the one that thinks in the here and now, what the moment looks like, what it smells like, what it tastes like, what it sounds like, and the life side. That's the linear one. That's methodical. That's about the past. It's about the future. It's about logic. It's about putting things in place. And as Einstein said as well, logic will get you from A to B, but imagination will get you anywhere. And if we know all that, why is it we don't value play? Why is it we don't allow children to play more? Why is it we send our kids to school at five to move them into that left side of their brain? So they have to sit at desks and get into those systems? Why don't we leave them there to allow them to grow, to be much better at what they do to become good human beings? It's, it's, um, it's always a surprise to me how we don't do that. We send our our kids to school far too early. I mean, I think there's only 22 countries in the, in the world who send their children to school, uh, at five, um, and four, and they're all commonwealth countries or ex commonwealth countries, because that's about preparing people to fit into the systems that are there. And when we look to the Nordic arc, if we look to, to Finland, which is always high, whether it's in Pisa, no matter what studies it's on, it's children. They don't go to school until they're seven. They don't set exams until they're 14 or 15. They're fabulous. So why is it we don't follow that evidence? Why is it we don't do that? And I think sometimes there's a rub between ideology and evidence, and ideology often wins over that. If we know it's so important, why don't we, we do that? It's much, it's the same with early years. We know how important early years are. We understand the evidence of Farah. So why is it then that we don't, we don't discuss, we don't explore the notion of saying, would it not be better in the long run to give parents two years leave, cost it out a human and economic cost model to understand where we are. I've just completed a, uh, work with the Independent Care Review in Scotland. It's the best thing I've ever done. The most important thing I think I've ever done. And, and the care review is a, a, a, a sad example of, of that early years and the damage that happens with it. O one stat I'll give you, there are loads, but this is just one that sticks out for me. 2% of the population in Scotland are care experienced. 30% of the prison population are care experienced. And that disparity will be reflected in homelessness, addiction, relationships, suicides, everything. And last year in 2018, rather, there were six and a half thousand suicides in the United Kingdom, but starting, starting late, there was a 23% increase in suicides in young people under the age of 25. There's something happening in our country in, in terms of relationships and young people, and we really do need to pay attention to it. And teachers in early years, folk, you guys are absolutely on the front line of this, but it's not, it's not a lost cause by any stretch. Uh, um, and, and I wanna be clear about that. It's just a challenge for us that we need to rise to that. It's that it's shared. That's everyone's responsibility. And so hope, I I, I love the idea of hope. Um, and, and not that soft squidgy notion of, well, I hope it's okay. I don't mean that, um, this definition of hope that's used by Vcl Havel, uh, I think is, is really, really important. And it's hope is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense regardless of how it turns out. And that's the same as that. Start where you are and do what you can. It's hugely important. So, so, so I'll now, I wanna tell you a, a, a, a story, which I think will help illustrate that. Um, back, I think it would be in about 2008, 2009, um, I was approached, uh, uh, as co-director of the Violence Reduction Unit by a politician to say, would, would I meet a friend of his who was a screenwriter, and he wanted to write something about gangs and the stuff we were doing in the East end of Glasgow at that time, which was around gangs in early years. And, um, I met with this man. His name was Paul Laverty. Met with him a couple of times, took him out to the east end of Glasgow, where he met this young man here. This young man's called Paul Branigan, the one in the, the screen. So they both met. Now, Paul Laverty worked for Ken Lo. Um, he wrote I, Daniel Blake, he wrote the last film, this film he wrote, ISS called The Angel Shear. And if you haven't seen it, I commend it to you, you have to do that. This young man is Paul Branigan. Paul starred in the Angel Shear. He won a bafta. Um, he text me from, uh, uh, can the Canne Film Festival, where he, where he was there with Ken Lo and Paul Laverty. And, um, hugely proud. And, and, um, his next film was with Scarlett Johansen. Uh, you know, and then he did a soap opera opera in Scotland called River City. People listening from Scotland will know how that affected his career. And, but Paul's a work in progress. But Paul was a methadone baby. Paul only knew violence at home from the minute he was born. He was excluded from school. He was in prison by the time he was 17. He was serving a long sentence, seven years for firearms related offenses, concerning gangs. And while he was in prison, a prison officer said to him, Paul, you're going to be here a while. You should really get yourself involved in something to make sure that you can pass your time and you get something from it. And Paul was, and he, football, he's quite a good footballer. So he said, right, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll do that. So he was, he started to do that. And the prison officer said, Paul, why don't you, when you're doing that, do a certificate, and then when you leave here, you'll have a qualification that can help you do things. But Paul didn't wanna do that because Paul could barely read or write, because Paul had been excluded from school. But the prison officer kept at it. He would give him his newspaper in a pen and a paper. Um, he would get 'em a, a, a dictionary. He would encourage 'em. So that when Paul was released, he came to work for a charity that we were working with in the east end of Glasgow, in the gangs as a football coach. And I introduced him to Paul Laverty, and Paul Laverty took him down to London to meet Ken Loach. And he read the script and he got the job. And he could only read that script because that prison officer took an interest. He started what he was and did what he could. He didn't say, if you read this, you'll, you'll get, you'll been a fellow with Scarlet Johansen. He didn't say You'll get a bafta. He just felt this is the right thing to do, so I'm gonna do it. And that's hugely important because you'll, you don't always see the outcomes for that. This is another, uh, uh, American president, um, who, who said, if your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more, and become more, you are a leader. I'd like to, um, take the last word of that out and say that if your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more. You're a teacher. That's what teachers do. And my wife's a teacher retired, and there would be kids in her class who at the end of their, their, their fifth year or fourth year, they would come in and they would say, there's a card, Mrs. Kanaan, thanks so much for everything. I got my a in, in modern studies or history, whatever it was they were doing. Um, and I'm going to St. Andrews to lead international studies. Thanks very much for your help. And that was nice. And, and those kids did that. If your teachers there, there'll be loads of kids that will do that for you as well. But the kids that you really help, some of them won't come in and give you a card. Some of those kids that you were the consistent adult for when they were living in that chaos, when they had no sense of coherence with that toxic stress and that safe place, that was the school or the nursery, and you were that consistent, safe adult for them, you made the difference because you were there when they needed you to be there, for them to put a hand in the shoulder to say it's okay to get 'em a cuddle, to say it was okay. They don't send you cards. But lots of those kids will now be adults being as good as they can be, because teachers took an interest in them, nursery staff took an interest. And that's huge. So I always like to say to any teachers and nursery staff that are there on behalf of all those kids, thank you, thank you. Because you've made a difference to them. There's no doubt about that. And don't forget that it's a calling. It makes a difference. It won't always be obvious to you in this world where we value the KPIs and we value the outputs and the performance, that's the stuff that really matters. And that's the stuff that as humans, we shouldn't lose sight of. Alan Sinkler used to say, Alan Sinkler was the economist who worked out the non ignite of skill stuff. And he said, you know, that's John, it's the closest thing to magic without actually being magic. And it is absolutely is. Now, it's not, it's not a cure-all, but there's absolutely no doubt that the kids that, you know, and I know as adults and ourselves and our own families have got the sort of human attributes that allow us to make good decisions about ourselves, allow us to judge risk. And that's why we we're where we are. We had the right people at the right time, whether it was a mum or a dad, or an aunt or an uncle at makes, they were there for us. And that's hugely important. And if you think of those kids in care right now, what we do is we take children away from families, and we give them a service when actually what they need is love. They're traumatized in a family, and that's why we're taking them away. And not only do we not deal with the trauma, but we traumatize 'em even more by putting them into 25 or 30 different homes by, uh, um, taking them out school to speak to their social worker, but the stigma that goes around that, and we actually make it worse. And we're then surprised as adults how that happens. So in finishing up, I just think it's hugely important that you don't lose that sight of the difference you're making. It's not an obvious thing. It's not like when I was investigating a murder and sold murder and locked somebody up and then went to the victim's family and said, I have completed my task. It's not like that you, you're actually building brains. You're, you're, you're giving people the capacity to make good decisions about themselves down the road. Decisions that might mean they won't become a drug addict. They won't get pregnant, they won't get STDs. They'll get a job, they'll be in good relationships. They'll be as good as they can be because somebody took an interest in them. So, as I said, thank you on behalf of all those kids. Don't lose sight of that. But at the end of the day, relationships are really all that matters. Relationships with the kids, with each other. That's the thing. That's why we're top of the food chain. And if that's the, that notion, uh, uh, of the answer to every question is relationships. It's not, remember Gordon Brown used to say, the economy's stupid? Well, it's not. It's relationship stupid. That's what it's all about. So this has been new for me. Uh, um, thanks so much, uh, uh, for listening. I'm gonna be here to think answering questions because Kate's still there. Um, so thanks for that, and happy to answer any questions that that might be there. Thanks for that. Yeah, Lovely. So if you've got any questions, if you just type them out now, um, one of the things that was coming back, John, was, um, people kind of feeling like they were fighting the system and that, that they, everybody was massively behind your message and really believed in what you were saying, but it was kind of that, that change in the system and doing things differently and fighting for what they believe in that people are really kind of coming across as wanting to do. Um, did you ever imagine that you would create this kind of movement that you've created? And what, what do you kind of think are the first steps or small things that you do? Well, it, it never started off with this notion. We, we didn't start off with, here's the plan where we want to go. Mm-Hmm. We just knew where we didn't want to be. We knew where we were. It, it wasn't enough. We had to, we had to change that. And after that, all, all we have done is it, it it's been organic. Mm-Hmm. There was no strategic plan. We were in place for three years before we wrote a plan. Yes. There was no strategic plan to say, we're going to, we're going to speak about early years, or we're gonna speak about adverse childhood experiences, or we're going to recognize the value of health visitors instead of police officers. We, we, we, um, we, we never thought about that. We just followed the evidence. Yes. And when the evidence is there, we just said it out loud, now I understand how difficult it is if you're a, a teacher in the classroom, that's, that's driven by a whole set of other KPIs. It really is hard. And, and I'm not suggesting for a minute that it is, and it was the same here. I mean, I had, I had senior police officer that'd say to me, John, domestic violence is not really a problem here. Yes. And I think this is, you know, this is 2008. What do you mean it's not a problem? Mean where have it been? So there was all of that stuff. We, we had a, a director of education once who said, it's not nice are not a problem, John. We do have some boys who hide their knives before they come into the school and they pick them up in the way out. But it's not really a problem for the school. And you're thinking, really? Mm-Hmm. Really? Yeah. And so all we did was just keep saying it out loud. Yes. And now we're at the state in Scotland, particularly with, with ACS and, and the work of Suzanne Zdi and, and some other people as well, um, Trying name who've done, Who've done a fabulous job. Um, I've, uh, they, they've changed the discussion. Mm-Hmm. So now that we, we've got police officers trying to be trauma informed, police Scotland wants them to be trauma informed. We've got, I was in a, a, a, a secondary school on, on, um, Friday speaking to teachers Yes. About trauma informed understanding. Mm-Hmm. That when a kid out in a classroom, they're not seeking attention, they're seeking connection. Yes. And, and, and they need to understand that. Don't say why you're behaving like that. Ask yourself the question, what happened to you? Yes. And if you do, that shifts, it shifts it around. And it's difficult. I'm not saying that it's easy, but we have a responsibility to do what we can as best we can, and support each other in doing it. And I think we will make a difference. It wouldn't be that all of a sudden there's a lever pool and it'll be fixed. Because if we could have done that, it would've been done. There's enough clever people have been looking at it. Mm-Hmm. But I do think we have to just start off and, um, just do what we can, no matter how small it is, just do what we can. Yeah. That's it. Um, someone's asked this, so Louise has said, without a plan, how do you get any funding Without a plan? Sorry, Without a plan? How do you get any funding? Well, we started off, well, we, we, we were really quite lucky. We had a great leader, uh, um, Willie Ray was the chief constable, and he said, just do it. Just do something different. Mm-Hmm. Uh, and, and we did that and we had no budget. But what we did, Karen was Principal Intelligence Analyst. Yeah. And I was deputy head of CID Mm-Hmm. So when we were moved into this new department, Willie Ray paid those departments for our jobs to be filled. Okay. So we said to those departments, give us the money. Mm-Hmm. Don't fill them. And they did that. Yes. So, the way we did that was because by that time, I, I had been a police officer for 30 years, 29 years. I had great relationships with lots of cops. Mm-Hmm. And Karen had great relationships with lots of academics and others. And that's how we started doing it. And then we just sat down, like timeshare sales people and, and, and sold the idea to folk. And when we went to them and said, what about this? They'd say, we were thinking exactly the same thing. What can we do together? We never, we never, uh, um, we asked people to prioritize and agree what to prioritize on not to do anything new, but to keep doing their job. So we're not asking teachers to do anything dif or anything new. They're still doing their job, but they're doing it in a way that supported by police and housing and health and social work. And we do it together. Yes. And not, not pulling apart. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the key thing, though. I know we were chatting beforehand, it's that collaboration and people coming together and sharing information. And that's what really makes all the difference. It is. And it, and it, and the important thing too is this, it's people that share information. When we were doing our gangs work, we created a hub. Yes. And in the hub we had social work, police health, the children's reporter housing. Um, but it was Annmarie and John and Robert and Karen and Bill. Yes. It was people who shared information. It wasn't agencies. Yes. It was people who shared. Yes. That's it. Um, talking about that, we've got a question here from Ruth. So you said, John, do you advise other police forces around the country who are setting up their own VR units? Well, I, I, um, yeah. That's sound like a real drop out. I, I, I'm now retired, been retired for a long time. Um, Mm-Hmm. What at the time, I, I commit to, to the care review. And I've still got things to do with that. That's the mountain that I'm climbing at the moment. Um, we have, you know, the vanish reduction is still there. Nevin Re's, the director, he has been down to London a couple of times. Mm-Hmm. The, the NPS Commissioner was up here, Chris, a deck along with a whole range of others last year. And I met Sad Khan and Jeremy Corbin, a whole range of other people. Um, Theresa May was in our office in 2011. We've told everybody what needs to be done. Everybody knows what they need to do. The issue is they just need to, uh, and, and that's that ideology and, and, and evidence. There's nothing that we are talking about that is, oh, I've never thought of that. Or I didn't, I've never heard of that before or of Yes. You know, you speak to any health visitor and they'll tell you all of this stuff. Mm-Hmm. You speak to any GP and they'll tell you, speak to any, any teacher, and they'll tell you, you know, we're speaking about the same people. Mm-Hmm. Yes. Um, so, uh, yeah. I, I mean, we're here and we'll do it. I would never not do it. We're trying to organize some people coming up to visit, uh, uh, and, and, and do some stuff. I would never not do it. But yes. Um, I have nothing new to say to people. Yeah. Well, I remember when I first said, do speak John, uh, one of the people in the audience, they said, what research can we do around early years that shows these links and shows the impact of this work around relationships? And I remember you saying it's kind of all been done. Right. There's a lot of research out there. We just need to crack on and get going with it. I know. I know. And it's just like, and, and that's just the way, and I'm not saying, I mean, research are hugely important, but we know enough. We know enough, yes. Wouldn't make it worse. Do no harm. But we know enough to be getting on with it. When we started doing this stuff around knives, we had somebody come in and said, oh, we'd like to, we'd like some research to why is it people use knives? We like some research on that. And if you had 120,000. And I said, well, I'm sorry. No. And they said, well, but, and it's really important. I said, yeah, it is. I said, and you go and do it and come back and tell me. I said, but right now, I know enough to be doing something about it right now. Yes. And we know enough about early years to be doing stuff. Enough good people out there Yes. Doing good stuff. Now we need, we, we, we can't do any harm. We need to be careful. And that's why that caveat, but acs, acs are not a score. Yes. They're not a, you know, if you've got four, you get these. That's the threshold. That's nonsense. And anybody who says that you need, they need to be challenged. It's not about that. We need to recognize that early years and trauma and early years is hugely important. And we need to invest in that. Whether that's Cams teams, whether it's early years, whether it's teachers, whether it's health visitors, nurse, family partnership. We need to invest in that. I mean, England had Sure. Staff centers. They were fabulous. That was a great start. Yeah, that's true. Um, I've got a question here from Graham. He said, what's the best piece of advice for working in a school where most are on board with a viewpoint that relationships are the basis of everything, but there are still a number who don't buy in. Is it just to keep plugging away? Just keep plugging away? We, we, we set up and started, I think it was 2006, campus police officers in schools. And those were like community cops. Plus they were really good community cops, because being a police officer is a, is a people job. It's nothing else. It's a people job. And, and we put them into, into secondary schools. And, and the first secondary school went into, the head teacher didn't want them there, but the director of education said, let's just try it because it's as if we've got a problem with a school. We can't cope. There's a, there's an ego thing in that. But what the officer did was he worked with a deputy head teacher, and they would deal with a crisis before the drama, before it became a crisis. He would, yes, he would work in the playground with kids. He ran the Duke of Edinburgh ward. He spoke to all his shop shopkeeper. So there was no carry on. At lunchtime. He did all of that stuff, but he did much, much more. He linked into the nurseries and the schools. Um, and, and a couple of examples. One, um, young boy doesn't turn up on a Monday and his duty says he, he's a good boy. The cop knows that the young boy was at hospital last night with his mom. 'cause his dad got locked up for assaulting her. So the police and the school can go and visit 'em and get 'em back in the school. Yes. Um, they can deal with the drama. And on the, on the, um, parents' nights, they had a room with the campus cops, and eventually the parents started to get as well. So it wasn't a bit solving crime, it was a bit established in relationships. Yes. Particularly with young children. Mm-Hmm. So when they grew up, they knew that cops only just the bad guys who stopped you and said you, and moved you on, that they were there to help you. They were part of your community and you were there. Yeah. So it, it, it was just, and now we, we've got them in dozens and dozens of schools through Scotland, and if you tried to take them away, the head teachers would rail you. You wouldn't get taken them away because they're such an integral part of it. Yeah, it's true. 'cause we were chatting about this before when we were saying that it is that breaking the patterns for those children that come in and their parents and their families will have seen the police as being a bad thing. And for them coming into school and having that relationship built for them, it can make all the difference. Yeah. And it's about building, I think it's about building teams around kids. Mm-Hmm. Because, um, James Heckman is a Nobel laureate. James Heckman is the guy who said, he, he said that for every pound you spend in early years, you'll need to spend seven in adolescents to get the same result. Yes. Um, but, but he also said a major determinant in the successful schools as successful families, because teachers can only teach what parents provide. Yes. And the truth of the matter is, teachers don't have kids long enough. They, they, and I'm not suggesting teachers should work longer, for goodness sake. Whoa. But, um, but working with families, you know, you want kids to do homework, maybe mom and dad can't do the homework. Yeah. They need help too. And so that notion of saying Right, how do we help? Yeah. Because if, if, if, if our, our function here is to make this the best thing we can for this child to make it as good as we can, so they can be all they can be. What do we need to do? And if it's not my job, whose job is it? I need to speak to them. They need to help. And that's, that's how these things need to be done. And I, and I'm not suggesting it's easy. I know it's not. Yeah, yeah. But it, it's, doing the right thing is never easy. Uh, um, and people won't do it simply because it's the right thing. But that's no reason too difficult, is not a reason for not doing it. Yes, that's true. Um, I've got a question here from Julie. Uh, she said, I'm working with young people who don't have the resources to meet the demands of life, who struggle with the communication and they'll be transitioning to secondary school. In your experience, what's more important a clean state to start from? Or pointing out vulnerability? Uh, no, I think you, you need to share, you need to share the information people need to know, um, a a about children. My, my wife is a classroom teacher. Would you to get really frustrated where Yeah. There would be, there'd be a kid in the class. This is a true story, and it didn't happen to my wife. It happened to another school down in Asia. There was a young girl at 13 standing in the corridor one day outside the classroom. 'cause the teacher put her out. The campus police officer walked past and he knew her, knew the family. The family were challenging, very difficult. And he said to the girl, what, what have you done today? Why are you here? What's, what's happened? And she got a bit upset and he, he spoke to her again. She didn't have a clean shirt to go to school. She was wearing a coat. And underneath it, she just had her bra. Wow. And the teacher had said, take your coat off. And she couldn't take it off. And because she said no, and she acted because she was, you imagine how embarrassing that would be. Yeah. The teacher asked her to leave. The campus cop went down to a local pre-Mark bought her a pack of shots. She was back in the classroom in the afternoon. And that teacher was so embarrassed because she didn't know that young girl's background. Yeah. Yeah. So you need to make people aware. It's not a gruse sharing of, of salacious information about families and stuff, but you need to know if a child has at risk and what, what the trauma they've had. Otherwise you've a danger to triggering that and making it worse. That's how kids just kick out and throw stuff around a room that, you know, if all behavior, communication, if you understand what the language is, then you can perhaps, you know, the old look at me when I'm speaking to you. I mean, somebody who's already Hi. That's another thing to say. You shouldn't have said that to me if I was like that. You know? Yeah, That's true. And I think also there's something different about sharing those vulnerabilities and those things that are going on for a child in the background than just going in and saying, I've got a child who misbehaves. Um, that you're kind of expecting those things. If you are going in with that knowledge of what's going on with the family and the background for that child. That's a very different thing to, to understand. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. That is, I mean, if you think about anything else, you need information to respond Yes. Properly no matter what. It's, if you don't have the right information, and lots of times we're not doing that. And of course it escalates situations until the drama becomes a crisis. And, and if we just had that bit of information earlier, now it, it, it's, it's really difficult. It, it's hard. Um, but, um, I think, I think we need to see schools, schools, I mean, sometimes schools are seen as places where teachers work. Yes. As opposed to venues for education. Mm-Hmm. And, and the education is, is, um, not the capital E that only teachers can do, but education is far broader than that. There's a whole range of other things that, that Yeah. Um, and teachers, just by their example in the role, uh, um, you know, kids, they, they learn as much from that as they do from a textbook or they do from an examination, or they do from a lecture. Yes. Uh, I mean, I, I am today my, my, my, my granddaughter saying, I, I do the crossword I sent in the crossword. I morning. She now takes the paper and I have to keep yesterday's paper the day, the day before. And she, two and a half, she opens it to the crossword patient. She sits beside the, and do the crossword. No, I never said to do the crossword. Yeah. She just sees her path doing that. And then she copies it and, and it, they, we know about these examples. We understand that, you know, every child who's in prison was every man who's in prison was a child. Yes. Do You know that's it. What happened? Yeah. I saw, I saw the picture of you on Twitter. You in that John. Well, yeah. Yeah. Yes, of Course. Cross away Together. My daughter put it out there. But I mean, it's that, you know, it's that, it's as simple as that. I mean, how it is quickly they pick things up just two and a half, you know? Yeah. I mean, she can't do the crosswalk obviously, but, you know. Yeah. And it's, it's seeing those examples, isn't it? So yeah. It's those things. Yes. That, that, you know, it, it's, it's really important that, um, they're more likely to do what they see you do than do what you tell 'em to do. Yes. That's it. Um, so I've got, uh, Raymond's made a comment here. He said, we have all the information by now from ACEs, Scotland yourself, and many more. I'd like us now to turn our energy and interest. So what and why has all this information and all the steps taken so far and why they've not worked. Um, so just about hearts being shut down and kind of, you'd like to know your feelings about this as to how we warm people up to this and knowing that scientists and professionals kind of don't like to shock an or Well, I'll tell you. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Because I mean, at the end of the day, this is, you know, in terms of change, if you're thinking about change, if you're a, a student of change, uh, um, yes. This is a power shift. Yes. And, and people don't like to give up power. That that's, that, that's that relationship. It's that, and it's really, really challenging. Yes. Um, I'll tell you what happened up, up in Scotland, and it was a series of things. We brought Vincent ti over and we W Joe conference. We're speaking about ACEs. Suzanne Zig, I think, have you had Suzanne on or she coming on to do a Yes with you? We had, Yeah, she came on in December. Yeah. Right. So Suzanne then took a film called, uh, um, connected Baby I Film, um, no Resilience. And she Yes. Started taking that into community centers, cafes, um, churches, and people came to see it. Ordinary folk, not professionals, parents, ordinary people in Scotland, we call them punters, you know? Yes. They just come out and all of a sudden the number of moms and dads and adults who said, that makes perfect sense to me. I understand that now I know what happened to me. I know why I'm like that now. I know my kids made me treat them differently. And that started a whole discussion and it was really difficult and challenging. And there are still challenges around it because people are threatened by it. How dare you. This is, you know, this is, this has to be the reserve of clever people and not order, you know, that notion's there sometimes. Yes. Um, but started the discussion and it built on other things and built on and built on. And it takes time. I reckon it takes a decade Yes. To start getting the, we brought Vincent Felli to Scotland in 2008 to speak at the police college. Yes. A-W-H-O-A-A World Health Organization co. Mm-Hmm. We were running, we were the only police office police members of the World Health Organization. Yes. 2008. It took until 2017 in Scotland to establish an ACS hub by public health. And the government now have an AC hub and they look at adverse childhood experiences. How can we learn more from that? And that trauma we brought over Nadine Burke Harris from the States to speak about it. It, it just takes time. And you'll have a few early adopters, you'll have a few outliers. We've still got the outliers, um, negative architects, and that's fine. Uh, what I always say to people when they, they challenge acs and they say, oh, this science is not profound, and it's not this, and it's not. I always say, well, look, here's the thing for me. I really don't need science Yes. To tell me that a family that's living in poverty, whose father is an alcoholic and violent, whose mom suffered from depress, whose children have highly enough to eat every day, I don't need signs to tell me that's difficult for them and for help. Yeah. I don't need signs for that. Yeah. Um, the science is there great. And we'll use it, but the truth is, if you need signs in order to convince yourself to help kids like that, sorry. Mm-Hmm. You're in the wrong room, you know? No, it's true. And we've got, we've got a message from Alexandra Law saying, go Scotland, we have to catch up in England. It's true. So, so yeah. There, it's, listen, Not fixed in Scotland. It's not fixed. Yes. Her, her suicide rates are dreadful. So we are not fixed. We're just on the journey. That's all. We're just on the journey much more to do. Mm-Hmm. And I think there probably always will be stuff to do. So Yeah. There's always, yep. That's it. But, but we're coming to the end of the webinar and I'd just like to say a massive, massive thank you, John. You've inspired a lot of people. You, I think there was someone who was saying about, um, uh, coming to tears halfway through. So, so you've inspired a lot of people tonight. And, and what I'd like to say is as well, like when you were talking about the teachers and making a difference and kind of really like the stuff that they're doing in school and the people that are coming out tonight to this webinar, there people that are wanting to make a difference. And there's a lot of people at this webinar that are hearing your message. So Yeah. It's, it's a good thing. Well, it's a great people. Yeah. Lots of great people that have brilliant comments and really engaging and really wanting to make change. So it's exciting to see that. Yeah. Brilliant. So a big, big thank you to everybody for coming out and a massive thank you for John. Mm-Hmm. Thank you. Yeah, thank you everybody. So yeah, bye. Bye.