WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.915 --> 00:00:14.775 So, um, thank you for coming today 2 00:00:14.915 --> 00:00:16.695 or for listening whenever you're listening. 3 00:00:17.115 --> 00:00:18.775 So, I am Evan Kidd 4 00:00:18.875 --> 00:00:22.855 and I am a, uh, developmental psychologist and a linguist, 5 00:00:23.155 --> 00:00:24.775 and I work at the, uh, 6 00:00:25.265 --> 00:00:28.135 Australian National University in Canberra, Australia. 7 00:00:28.795 --> 00:00:31.815 And a lot of my work has been looking at the relationship 8 00:00:31.815 --> 00:00:34.615 between symbolic play, so one form of play 9 00:00:35.075 --> 00:00:36.455 and language acquisition. 10 00:00:36.835 --> 00:00:39.215 So this is work that my colleagues and my students 11 00:00:39.235 --> 00:00:42.975 and I have been doing for the last 15 or or odd years. 12 00:00:43.555 --> 00:00:46.135 So I'm just gonna tell you a bit about that today. 13 00:00:46.395 --> 00:00:48.615 But before I talk about symbolic play, 14 00:00:49.355 --> 00:00:52.695 I'm just gonna talk about what is play in general. 15 00:00:53.235 --> 00:00:57.015 So it turns out that it's actually quite a tough thing 16 00:00:57.035 --> 00:01:00.495 to define, and scientists have been arguing about how 17 00:01:00.495 --> 00:01:02.935 to define play for, for decades. 18 00:01:03.915 --> 00:01:07.295 So while we all seem to agree, when we see it, what play is, 19 00:01:07.485 --> 00:01:09.095 it's actually a slippery concept. 20 00:01:09.315 --> 00:01:12.055 And the best way that we seem to be able to capture it, 21 00:01:12.355 --> 00:01:16.295 or it's essence is through a criteria based approach. 22 00:01:16.995 --> 00:01:20.095 So, um, play should be intrinsically motivated, 23 00:01:20.095 --> 00:01:23.455 so it's not constrained by external rules or social demand. 24 00:01:23.475 --> 00:01:26.055 So you can make up the rules as you go along. 25 00:01:26.435 --> 00:01:29.695 It should be non-literal so that behaviors don't have, uh, 26 00:01:29.695 --> 00:01:31.415 normal or literal meaning all the time. 27 00:01:32.075 --> 00:01:34.575 It has positive affect, so it's enjoyable. 28 00:01:35.355 --> 00:01:36.495 Um, it's flexible. 29 00:01:36.515 --> 00:01:40.095 So there's variation in, uh, its form and its content. 30 00:01:40.355 --> 00:01:41.575 And this is really one of the 31 00:01:42.245 --> 00:01:44.055 core defining features of play. 32 00:01:44.675 --> 00:01:46.935 And the other one is that it is a means end. 33 00:01:46.995 --> 00:01:49.215 So, uh, it has a means end criteria, 34 00:01:49.315 --> 00:01:52.815 and so the performance is more important than the outcome. 35 00:01:52.875 --> 00:01:55.855 So the journey in play is much more important than 36 00:01:55.885 --> 00:01:58.455 what children are trying to achieve, or adults. 37 00:01:58.875 --> 00:02:01.935 Um, given that we don't stop playing all our lives, 38 00:02:01.995 --> 00:02:03.255 we just play in a different way. 39 00:02:04.955 --> 00:02:08.455 So, uh, there are different types of play that can be 40 00:02:09.015 --> 00:02:11.855 identified as emerging in different, uh, 41 00:02:11.855 --> 00:02:13.135 times in development. 42 00:02:13.195 --> 00:02:14.375 So one of the first forms 43 00:02:14.395 --> 00:02:16.975 of play is social contingency play, 44 00:02:17.075 --> 00:02:18.295 and this emerges in the, 45 00:02:18.295 --> 00:02:19.815 within the first six months of life. 46 00:02:20.235 --> 00:02:23.335 So these, um, when children, uh, get a lot 47 00:02:23.335 --> 00:02:26.615 of enjoyment from games like Peekaboo, um, where there's, 48 00:02:26.795 --> 00:02:30.255 uh, enjoyment in response to other people's, um, 49 00:02:30.345 --> 00:02:33.015 quite surprising and play-based, uh, actions. 50 00:02:33.645 --> 00:02:35.095 Then there's sensory motor play. 51 00:02:35.235 --> 00:02:38.375 So these are activities based on sensory motor properties 52 00:02:38.375 --> 00:02:40.695 of objects or, um, or the body. 53 00:02:40.795 --> 00:02:42.655 So a classic one is banging 54 00:02:42.655 --> 00:02:45.015 or dropping blocks when children, um, are starting 55 00:02:45.015 --> 00:02:47.735 to get more of their fine motor skills going. 56 00:02:49.005 --> 00:02:51.375 Then this moves on to things like object play. 57 00:02:51.435 --> 00:02:53.815 So classic things like Lego molding clay, 58 00:02:53.995 --> 00:02:57.655 and building houses of cards, which emerges, um, later on 59 00:02:57.675 --> 00:02:59.485 as children's fine motor schools, uh, 60 00:02:59.485 --> 00:03:00.485 get a little bit better. 61 00:03:02.035 --> 00:03:03.525 There's also language play, 62 00:03:03.545 --> 00:03:05.805 and this, uh, can go right from the beginning 63 00:03:05.945 --> 00:03:08.085 of when children start to produce, sounds like 64 00:03:08.085 --> 00:03:11.285 with babbling, um, right through to, uh, 65 00:03:11.285 --> 00:03:13.165 when they're even learning literacy. 66 00:03:13.345 --> 00:03:15.285 Uh, and in between there are things like crib talk. 67 00:03:15.585 --> 00:03:18.845 So, um, people who have children out there might recognize 68 00:03:18.845 --> 00:03:21.685 that, that their child may well have been talking 69 00:03:21.705 --> 00:03:22.845 to themselves, uh, 70 00:03:22.845 --> 00:03:23.765 before they went to sleep, 71 00:03:23.835 --> 00:03:25.125 even though there's no one to talk to. 72 00:03:25.565 --> 00:03:28.085 Children take quite a lot of delight in, um, in playing 73 00:03:28.085 --> 00:03:30.645 with language, um, even when other people aren't around. 74 00:03:32.255 --> 00:03:34.195 The fifth is physical activity play. 75 00:03:34.195 --> 00:03:36.595 So this can be exercise, play like running, jumping, 76 00:03:36.995 --> 00:03:38.235 climbing trees and rough 77 00:03:38.235 --> 00:03:39.955 and tumble play, which can be, um, 78 00:03:39.955 --> 00:03:41.555 with other people or other children. 79 00:03:41.615 --> 00:03:43.995 So chasing and play wrestling and things like that. 80 00:03:44.735 --> 00:03:46.715 Um, this is beneficial for development 81 00:03:46.715 --> 00:03:50.195 because, uh, it, it, um, enables children to, um, 82 00:03:50.415 --> 00:03:51.475 get gain strength 83 00:03:51.495 --> 00:03:53.075 and mobility and all those kinds of things. 84 00:03:53.415 --> 00:03:54.995 But things that rough and tumble play, 85 00:03:54.995 --> 00:03:57.515 even though we might look down upon them for things like, 86 00:03:57.575 --> 00:03:58.875 um, play wrestling or chasing 87 00:03:59.015 --> 00:04:01.915 and things like that actually have a social component 88 00:04:02.015 --> 00:04:04.635 as well, because when children are engaging in playful 89 00:04:05.155 --> 00:04:07.515 banter, what they're doing is learning social signals 90 00:04:07.515 --> 00:04:08.555 from other people too. 91 00:04:09.495 --> 00:04:12.515 But this brings me to, um, symbolic or pretend play. 92 00:04:12.635 --> 00:04:14.275 I call it symbolic, uh, play, 93 00:04:14.275 --> 00:04:15.955 but, um, other people might know it 94 00:04:15.955 --> 00:04:17.795 as pretend play even a fantasy play. 95 00:04:17.815 --> 00:04:19.395 So you can use those interchangeably. 96 00:04:19.895 --> 00:04:22.835 And this is the non-literal, uh, use of objects, 97 00:04:22.985 --> 00:04:24.515 actions, and persons. 98 00:04:24.515 --> 00:04:27.235 And this is what I'm going to be talking about today, 99 00:04:27.255 --> 00:04:29.555 in particular in its relationship to language. 100 00:04:31.455 --> 00:04:34.875 So, symbolic play, once again, is the non-literal use 101 00:04:34.875 --> 00:04:37.115 of objects, actions, or persons. 102 00:04:37.265 --> 00:04:40.635 Typically in the spirit of enjoyment, children start 103 00:04:40.635 --> 00:04:43.795 to engage in symbolic play in the second year of life 104 00:04:43.795 --> 00:04:45.315 around 15 to 18 months. 105 00:04:45.375 --> 00:04:47.435 It depends on the child when this emerges, 106 00:04:47.855 --> 00:04:49.355 and it's quite simple in the beginning. 107 00:04:49.355 --> 00:04:51.795 So we have things like object substitution. 108 00:04:51.935 --> 00:04:54.835 So this, uh, little fellow here is pretending a 109 00:04:54.835 --> 00:04:55.915 banana is a telephone. 110 00:04:56.195 --> 00:04:58.075 Telephones don't look like bananas anymore, 111 00:04:58.095 --> 00:05:00.035 but this is a classic textbook example. 112 00:05:00.415 --> 00:05:02.195 And this is object substitution 113 00:05:02.195 --> 00:05:05.235 because what he's doing here is he's using the, um, object, 114 00:05:05.535 --> 00:05:08.115 uh, for a function that it's not intended for. 115 00:05:08.115 --> 00:05:11.075 So he's pretending the banana is a telephone. 116 00:05:12.455 --> 00:05:15.385 Then, uh, this leads into things like sociodramatic play. 117 00:05:15.445 --> 00:05:18.505 So a classic example here is of, um, a tea party. 118 00:05:18.645 --> 00:05:19.865 So when, um, uh, 119 00:05:19.865 --> 00:05:22.785 this young girl here is either is playing a tea party 120 00:05:22.785 --> 00:05:24.665 with her, uh, with her stuffed toys, 121 00:05:25.045 --> 00:05:28.105 but it can also be done with other humans also. 122 00:05:28.975 --> 00:05:31.505 Then there's other types of play like, uh, role play. 123 00:05:31.565 --> 00:05:33.785 So children often impersonate, um, 124 00:05:34.225 --> 00:05:35.585 superheroes or other people. 125 00:05:36.325 --> 00:05:40.185 And finally, something I will talk about briefly today is 126 00:05:40.335 --> 00:05:41.905 imaginary companion play. 127 00:05:41.905 --> 00:05:44.625 So these are all examples of symbolic 128 00:05:44.645 --> 00:05:48.085 or pretend play, play. 129 00:05:48.085 --> 00:05:50.485 So symbolic play itself is, uh, 130 00:05:50.695 --> 00:05:52.605 quite a fascinating behavior. 131 00:05:53.105 --> 00:05:56.085 Um, it appears to be an evolved behavior in the sense 132 00:05:56.085 --> 00:05:58.405 that it's a property of humans in general. 133 00:05:58.585 --> 00:06:01.565 So it's universal, it's affected by culture. 134 00:06:01.785 --> 00:06:04.845 So it, the play themes are different, uh, 135 00:06:04.945 --> 00:06:06.565 for children in different cultures, 136 00:06:06.565 --> 00:06:07.845 but it seems to be the case 137 00:06:07.845 --> 00:06:09.525 that there are no human societies 138 00:06:09.525 --> 00:06:12.005 that don't engage in some form of symbolic play. 139 00:06:12.865 --> 00:06:15.205 Um, it appears in a set schedule. 140 00:06:15.585 --> 00:06:19.085 So, uh, children begin to engage in this rudimentary, say, 141 00:06:19.105 --> 00:06:21.205 object substitution, like I showed you 142 00:06:21.205 --> 00:06:25.525 before with the banana and the telephone, um, around, uh, 143 00:06:25.525 --> 00:06:26.645 15 to 18 months. 144 00:06:26.745 --> 00:06:29.125 So somewhere in, within the second year of life. 145 00:06:29.425 --> 00:06:31.565 And as I said, it's unique to humans. 146 00:06:32.265 --> 00:06:36.085 And this leads us to, um, what Angeline Lillard is called, 147 00:06:36.145 --> 00:06:38.165 the conundrum of symbolic play. 148 00:06:38.465 --> 00:06:41.565 So she writes, young children need to adopt, adapt 149 00:06:41.585 --> 00:06:42.685 to the world as it is, 150 00:06:42.685 --> 00:06:46.245 because really as humans, one of our jobs is to, uh, learn 151 00:06:46.265 --> 00:06:48.165 how the world works and to learn 152 00:06:48.165 --> 00:06:49.565 how the world works in reality. 153 00:06:50.905 --> 00:06:52.325 But in pretend play 154 00:06:52.405 --> 00:06:56.445 or symbolic play, children contrive the world, um, to be 155 00:06:56.505 --> 00:06:58.565 as it isn't or as it is not. 156 00:06:59.105 --> 00:07:02.125 So this begs the question, if children are engaging in loss 157 00:07:02.125 --> 00:07:04.885 of symbolic play and a lot of their play is symbolic 158 00:07:04.885 --> 00:07:06.645 or pretend to play particularly, uh, 159 00:07:06.645 --> 00:07:08.045 after, um, they start 160 00:07:08.045 --> 00:07:11.525 to engage in things like object substitution, it seems 161 00:07:11.525 --> 00:07:13.885 to be one of the most enjoyable forms of play. 162 00:07:14.705 --> 00:07:15.805 Why would they do so? 163 00:07:16.105 --> 00:07:19.845 Why would they engage in symbolic play when really their job 164 00:07:20.145 --> 00:07:24.445 as humans is to learn how to, um, how to, uh, 165 00:07:24.445 --> 00:07:26.085 understand the world as it really is? 166 00:07:28.235 --> 00:07:30.695 Now? It seems to be the case that after lots 167 00:07:30.695 --> 00:07:33.255 and lots of research over, over the years, um, 168 00:07:33.325 --> 00:07:35.935 that we've come to the conclusion that, uh, 169 00:07:36.095 --> 00:07:39.975 symbolic play might be an especially framed situation 170 00:07:40.345 --> 00:07:42.735 where children can learn important social 171 00:07:43.115 --> 00:07:45.615 and cognitive skills or socio cognitive skills. 172 00:07:46.515 --> 00:07:49.095 So symbolic play has been associated. 173 00:07:49.155 --> 00:07:51.855 So engaging in symbolic play has been linked to language, 174 00:07:51.855 --> 00:07:54.055 which is really what I'm going to talk to you about today. 175 00:07:54.835 --> 00:07:58.175 But it also importantly, has been linked to other skills 176 00:07:58.205 --> 00:08:01.775 that also related to language such as, uh, theory of mind. 177 00:08:01.955 --> 00:08:04.335 And so theory of mind is an ability to understand, 178 00:08:04.715 --> 00:08:07.615 or at least to predict what other people are thinking. 179 00:08:08.605 --> 00:08:09.985 Um, and this is a really important 180 00:08:10.385 --> 00:08:11.505 uniquely human skill as well. 181 00:08:11.565 --> 00:08:13.985 And a symbolic play has been linked to it. 182 00:08:14.645 --> 00:08:17.025 Um, it's also been linked to executive function. 183 00:08:17.125 --> 00:08:20.225 So executive function of those skills, like, um, planning, 184 00:08:20.615 --> 00:08:22.545 like, um, engaging 185 00:08:22.685 --> 00:08:24.305 and completing concept, uh, 186 00:08:24.305 --> 00:08:28.105 complex tasks depends on brain structures that are, 187 00:08:28.405 --> 00:08:31.505 are called, uh, that are linked to executive functioning. 188 00:08:31.885 --> 00:08:33.665 And symbolic play has actually been linked 189 00:08:33.685 --> 00:08:35.505 to executive functioning as well. 190 00:08:37.145 --> 00:08:39.005 So, um, as I said, 191 00:08:39.025 --> 00:08:41.005 my talk is gonna be about language mainly. 192 00:08:41.785 --> 00:08:43.365 Um, and language is important 193 00:08:43.365 --> 00:08:47.005 because it's a crucial predictor of a range of outcomes. 194 00:08:47.065 --> 00:08:48.885 So language is a very good predictor 195 00:08:48.945 --> 00:08:51.125 of academic achievement, for instance. 196 00:08:52.385 --> 00:08:55.325 So the question that we've been asking over, um, 197 00:08:55.545 --> 00:08:57.645 the last 15 years or so, is how 198 00:08:57.705 --> 00:09:00.325 and why are symbolic play and language related? 199 00:09:02.505 --> 00:09:05.165 So that's what I'm going to tell you about, um, 200 00:09:05.235 --> 00:09:08.125 over the next, uh, 20 or minutes or so. 201 00:09:09.105 --> 00:09:11.485 So the first thing that we have to do is establish 202 00:09:11.485 --> 00:09:12.525 that they are related. 203 00:09:12.945 --> 00:09:15.325 Uh, and so over the years, uh, lots 204 00:09:15.325 --> 00:09:17.925 of people have conducted a lot of, uh, small studies 205 00:09:18.145 --> 00:09:20.845 and they've reported say, correlations between measures 206 00:09:20.905 --> 00:09:23.205 of symbolic play and measures of language. 207 00:09:23.345 --> 00:09:26.565 And when those two are associated, we can, we can say, well, 208 00:09:26.565 --> 00:09:28.525 there seems to be something there, there seems 209 00:09:28.525 --> 00:09:31.045 to be something in, um, playing 210 00:09:31.115 --> 00:09:34.125 that might also be related to language. 211 00:09:34.985 --> 00:09:39.485 So, um, what a, uh, PhD student of mine 212 00:09:39.485 --> 00:09:42.325 and I, Sarah Quinn, um, did is, uh, 213 00:09:42.375 --> 00:09:44.805 don't worry about these graphs, um, I'll explain them. 214 00:09:45.385 --> 00:09:47.725 Um, we looked at all of these studies. 215 00:09:47.785 --> 00:09:50.085 We conducted what's called a meta-analysis. 216 00:09:50.185 --> 00:09:52.925 So we conduct, looked at all these studies that, uh, 217 00:09:53.185 --> 00:09:56.205 tested children's symbolic play and their language 218 00:09:56.265 --> 00:09:58.725 and looked at the association between the two. 219 00:09:59.425 --> 00:10:02.285 And what we found is that when we averaged all these studies 220 00:10:02.645 --> 00:10:05.405 together, and this is what a meta-analysis does, that, um, 221 00:10:05.425 --> 00:10:08.645 we found that the average association is, uh, 222 00:10:08.835 --> 00:10:10.605 something like 0.36. 223 00:10:10.785 --> 00:10:12.485 And now that might mean nothing to you. 224 00:10:12.785 --> 00:10:14.685 It might mean something to you if you've done some 225 00:10:14.685 --> 00:10:16.725 undergraduate psychology or statistics, 226 00:10:16.985 --> 00:10:20.285 but what that actually means is that above chance, 227 00:10:20.455 --> 00:10:23.285 these two skills are associated with each other, 228 00:10:23.545 --> 00:10:25.445 and they're associated with each other to a, 229 00:10:25.565 --> 00:10:27.245 a fairly good degree. 230 00:10:27.625 --> 00:10:31.685 And so what this, um, figure on the left hand side, um, 231 00:10:31.865 --> 00:10:34.605 is showing is that all of the individual, um, 232 00:10:34.605 --> 00:10:37.245 studies you can see are right of 233 00:10:37.245 --> 00:10:38.685 that line, that's their results. 234 00:10:38.745 --> 00:10:41.165 And that means that if they're right of that zero line, 235 00:10:41.315 --> 00:10:43.325 then there is this association 236 00:10:43.465 --> 00:10:46.525 and this other figure, this funnel plot as it's called, um, 237 00:10:46.745 --> 00:10:49.845 is just showing the same, um, the same data represented, 238 00:10:50.225 --> 00:10:51.525 uh, slightly differently. 239 00:10:53.525 --> 00:10:56.805 So, um, overall we have strong evidence 240 00:10:56.865 --> 00:10:59.645 for this robust symbolic play language 241 00:10:59.645 --> 00:11:01.205 relationship across development. 242 00:11:01.205 --> 00:11:03.245 And this was important because when we were doing this 243 00:11:03.695 --> 00:11:07.445 study, um, a, a while ago now, there were some, uh, people 244 00:11:07.445 --> 00:11:09.765 that were really questioning whether this is 245 00:11:09.905 --> 00:11:11.125 actual association. 246 00:11:11.265 --> 00:11:12.565 So we look, 247 00:11:12.565 --> 00:11:14.125 because we looked at all of the studies 248 00:11:14.125 --> 00:11:15.965 that have been conducted, and we combine them all, 249 00:11:15.985 --> 00:11:19.845 we can be confident that this link actually exists. 250 00:11:20.555 --> 00:11:24.125 However, an association is not an explanation. 251 00:11:24.985 --> 00:11:27.325 So, uh, in a lot of the other research 252 00:11:27.325 --> 00:11:29.045 that we've been doing, we've been trying 253 00:11:29.045 --> 00:11:32.645 to explain why symbolic play, the particular behavior 254 00:11:32.645 --> 00:11:35.165 of symbolic play might be related 255 00:11:35.345 --> 00:11:37.045 to children's language development. 256 00:11:37.425 --> 00:11:39.365 And we've done this in, um, infants, 257 00:11:39.365 --> 00:11:42.125 and we've also done it in school aged children. 258 00:11:42.705 --> 00:11:46.445 So what I'm gonna show you first is, um, quite a bit of, uh, 259 00:11:47.365 --> 00:11:50.735 data, well, quite a bit of results from a, um, 260 00:11:50.875 --> 00:11:53.245 at one particular study that's looked at, uh, 261 00:11:53.285 --> 00:11:56.365 symbolic play in infancy and its relationship to language. 262 00:11:56.665 --> 00:11:59.565 And then what I'll do is I'll talk about some other studies 263 00:11:59.565 --> 00:12:01.485 that where we've looked at school aged children. 264 00:12:04.855 --> 00:12:07.995 So, um, in order to understand 265 00:12:08.135 --> 00:12:10.035 or try to understand this relationship 266 00:12:10.145 --> 00:12:14.275 between symbolic play, we first, um, should deconstruct 267 00:12:14.625 --> 00:12:16.875 what the play is or con common features 268 00:12:16.875 --> 00:12:19.955 or important features of symbolic play. 269 00:12:20.855 --> 00:12:24.075 So, um, what we know from other people's studies is 270 00:12:24.075 --> 00:12:27.355 that when young children are engaging in symbolic play, 271 00:12:27.385 --> 00:12:31.475 it's most often with a significant competent other. 272 00:12:31.615 --> 00:12:34.555 So this could be their parent, it could be an older sibling, 273 00:12:35.135 --> 00:12:36.435 but the most 274 00:12:36.655 --> 00:12:39.835 of the time symbolic play is conducted socially. 275 00:12:39.895 --> 00:12:42.395 So it's with another person or with other people. 276 00:12:43.535 --> 00:12:45.675 And it's not only conducted 277 00:12:45.675 --> 00:12:47.235 with a significant competent other, 278 00:12:47.375 --> 00:12:49.795 but in particular when a child is very young, it's 279 00:12:50.475 --> 00:12:52.155 scaffolded by this competent other. 280 00:12:52.535 --> 00:12:54.995 So I'll show you some examples of that later on. 281 00:12:54.995 --> 00:12:58.035 But what that really means is that this competent other, 282 00:12:58.095 --> 00:13:00.235 so a caregiver, a parent, um, 283 00:13:00.335 --> 00:13:04.115 or an older sibling, is really, um, helping the child 284 00:13:04.945 --> 00:13:07.075 pull themselves up by their bootstraps 285 00:13:07.075 --> 00:13:11.035 to engage in higher levels of, um, behavior, be 286 00:13:11.035 --> 00:13:12.235 that linguistic behavior 287 00:13:12.375 --> 00:13:14.195 or be that other cognitive behavior. 288 00:13:15.425 --> 00:13:18.675 This scaffolding is both a verbal and non-verbal. 289 00:13:19.095 --> 00:13:22.675 So, uh, it might be asking lots of questions of the child 290 00:13:22.735 --> 00:13:24.435 to elicit more responses from them. 291 00:13:24.775 --> 00:13:28.235 It might be producing more gestures for the child so 292 00:13:28.235 --> 00:13:29.915 that they understand concepts. 293 00:13:30.095 --> 00:13:32.795 And I'll show you some examples of that in a moment. 294 00:13:34.135 --> 00:13:36.515 And all of these complex interactions 295 00:13:36.515 --> 00:13:39.315 that happen in symbolic play requires a level 296 00:13:39.415 --> 00:13:42.275 of intersubjectivity or mutual understanding. 297 00:13:42.895 --> 00:13:46.235 It requires, um, what we might call mind reading. 298 00:13:46.775 --> 00:13:48.995 Uh, so it requires the two 299 00:13:49.175 --> 00:13:50.595 or the multiple participants 300 00:13:50.695 --> 00:13:52.875 to understand all at the same time 301 00:13:53.145 --> 00:13:55.555 that we're all thinking about the same thing. 302 00:13:58.455 --> 00:14:01.275 So with these in mind, we can ask the question, 303 00:14:01.415 --> 00:14:03.235 how does this lead to symbolic play being 304 00:14:03.425 --> 00:14:05.275 important for language? 305 00:14:08.065 --> 00:14:13.045 Um, so we think there are two magic ingredients 306 00:14:13.065 --> 00:14:16.165 to symbolic play that make it good for language. 307 00:14:16.585 --> 00:14:21.405 And the first one is, um, this notion of of symbols, right? 308 00:14:21.505 --> 00:14:24.685 So in, um, pretense, children learn about 309 00:14:24.805 --> 00:14:26.165 what we call status functions. 310 00:14:26.545 --> 00:14:30.245 So in the case of this picture here, we have, uh, a dad, 311 00:14:30.245 --> 00:14:31.525 potentially a dad and 312 00:14:31.745 --> 00:14:35.325 and a boy have using a block as a telephone. 313 00:14:35.475 --> 00:14:38.165 This telephone theme is, um, is quite, uh, 314 00:14:38.165 --> 00:14:39.645 common throughout the literature. 315 00:14:40.305 --> 00:14:42.685 And, um, so what they're doing here is they're 316 00:14:42.685 --> 00:14:43.765 saying that this is a block. 317 00:14:43.765 --> 00:14:44.765 You could use it for many things, 318 00:14:44.765 --> 00:14:47.045 but we're gonna use it as a telephone. 319 00:14:47.145 --> 00:14:49.445 So in, um, this context, 320 00:14:50.185 --> 00:14:52.715 the block X stands for a telephone. 321 00:14:53.455 --> 00:14:57.275 And this is unremarkable when we see this happening all the 322 00:14:57.275 --> 00:14:58.915 time, when even young children at the 323 00:14:58.915 --> 00:14:59.995 age of two are doing it. 324 00:15:00.415 --> 00:15:03.435 But really what it shows is a rudimentary behavior 325 00:15:03.545 --> 00:15:05.515 that is very unique to humans. 326 00:15:05.695 --> 00:15:08.995 And this is this, uh, ability to understand symbols. 327 00:15:09.775 --> 00:15:13.155 And really, um, this understanding is the foundation 328 00:15:13.155 --> 00:15:14.155 of human society. 329 00:15:14.735 --> 00:15:16.555 So we know that the symbol 330 00:15:16.655 --> 00:15:18.795 for stop at the traffic lights is red, 331 00:15:18.935 --> 00:15:21.075 and the symbol for go is green. 332 00:15:21.695 --> 00:15:25.715 Uh, we know that a bit of plastic can bias things at the, 333 00:15:25.815 --> 00:15:26.915 at the supermarket. 334 00:15:27.735 --> 00:15:31.035 Um, some religions have different symbols that mean, 335 00:15:31.135 --> 00:15:32.395 um, many different things. 336 00:15:32.495 --> 00:15:36.075 So Christianity has a cross, um, other, other, um, 337 00:15:36.595 --> 00:15:39.715 religions, um, might have other types of symbols as well. 338 00:15:40.175 --> 00:15:43.515 And we imbue those with a whole bunch of, um, 339 00:15:43.745 --> 00:15:45.755 important things for us. 340 00:15:46.655 --> 00:15:50.795 So this really simple behavior in children is really 341 00:15:50.945 --> 00:15:54.835 important because it's a feature of, of, uh, 342 00:15:55.015 --> 00:15:56.795 of human, um, cognition. 343 00:15:57.295 --> 00:15:58.675 So that's why part 344 00:15:58.675 --> 00:16:00.675 of the reason why we think symbolic play is important, 345 00:16:01.455 --> 00:16:04.275 but the other part of this puzzle is 346 00:16:04.275 --> 00:16:08.035 that we think the challenging symbolic context necessitates 347 00:16:08.035 --> 00:16:11.515 participants understand the contents of each other's minds, 348 00:16:11.515 --> 00:16:12.915 this mind reading, right? 349 00:16:13.575 --> 00:16:17.515 So as we can see here, um, a once again, maybe a dad 350 00:16:17.535 --> 00:16:20.155 and his daughter are engaging in a tea party. 351 00:16:20.775 --> 00:16:24.875 Now, this is a successful play episode in 352 00:16:24.975 --> 00:16:28.755 and only successful insofar as they both know, okay, 353 00:16:28.775 --> 00:16:30.555 we are both pretending there's tea 354 00:16:30.655 --> 00:16:32.635 or some kind of liquid in these cups. 355 00:16:32.885 --> 00:16:34.555 There isn't liquid in these cups, 356 00:16:34.555 --> 00:16:36.355 but we're pretending that this is the case. 357 00:16:36.735 --> 00:16:39.675 And so therefore, the, the young girl here has 358 00:16:39.675 --> 00:16:44.435 to have an image of, of the mind, state of the man, 359 00:16:44.815 --> 00:16:48.755 um, for this, uh, this interaction to be successful. 360 00:16:49.055 --> 00:16:50.075 So they have to be able 361 00:16:50.075 --> 00:16:53.235 to effectively read someone else's mind. 362 00:16:54.575 --> 00:16:58.995 So with that in mind, um, we conducted, we collected a, um, 363 00:16:59.615 --> 00:17:04.275 uh, a corpus, uh, of interactions between, uh, 364 00:17:04.405 --> 00:17:07.515 caregivers and infants aged 18 months, 365 00:17:07.655 --> 00:17:10.075 and once again when the infants were 24 months 366 00:17:11.665 --> 00:17:12.835 into contexts. 367 00:17:13.455 --> 00:17:15.955 So, uh, what we had is a very, this is a very, 368 00:17:15.955 --> 00:17:19.155 very simple study that yielded a lot of really rich data. 369 00:17:19.695 --> 00:17:23.195 So what we did is we got our, um, our participants, 370 00:17:23.195 --> 00:17:26.275 there are about 50 odd of them, so caregiver and children. 371 00:17:26.815 --> 00:17:29.555 And we simply said to them, uh, c, come 372 00:17:29.555 --> 00:17:30.755 and play with some toys 373 00:17:31.135 --> 00:17:33.115 and, uh, for 20 minutes and we'll film you. 374 00:17:33.735 --> 00:17:36.915 And so unbeknownst to them, there were two play sets. 375 00:17:37.255 --> 00:17:38.995 Uh, one was a functional play set. 376 00:17:39.015 --> 00:17:40.835 So these are, these don't lend themselves 377 00:17:40.895 --> 00:17:44.275 to symbolic behaviors because there's a function to them. 378 00:17:44.415 --> 00:17:47.035 So there's a, um, some musical instruments there. 379 00:17:47.035 --> 00:17:50.045 There's a puzzle, there's a, um, hammer and pegs, 380 00:17:50.065 --> 00:17:52.125 and there's a board, um, it's called an Etch 381 00:17:52.125 --> 00:17:53.445 of Sketch in Australian English. 382 00:17:53.605 --> 00:17:55.205 I can't remember what it might be called in 383 00:17:55.205 --> 00:17:56.245 British English, I'm sorry. 384 00:17:56.905 --> 00:17:59.165 Um, there's a function of drawing or writing there. 385 00:17:59.425 --> 00:18:01.925 And then there's a symbolic play set, uh, 386 00:18:01.935 --> 00:18:04.725 where there's things like cooking utensils. 387 00:18:04.915 --> 00:18:08.845 There's, um, a mobile phone that children can talk on. 388 00:18:09.155 --> 00:18:11.925 There's, um, a, a teddy bear 389 00:18:11.985 --> 00:18:15.645 and some other nonrepresentational toys that lend themselves 390 00:18:15.645 --> 00:18:18.165 to children to do things like object substitution 391 00:18:18.305 --> 00:18:20.565 or create pretend scripts like cooking 392 00:18:21.185 --> 00:18:22.325 and having a tea party. 393 00:18:22.745 --> 00:18:27.085 So all we did here was, um, we gave the toys one toy set, 394 00:18:27.225 --> 00:18:29.765 uh, to the, um, to the pair for 10 minutes. 395 00:18:29.985 --> 00:18:32.405 We took those toys away, we gave them the other set, 396 00:18:32.465 --> 00:18:35.565 and when we transcribed all of their interactions, 397 00:18:35.585 --> 00:18:38.045 and we coded them for things like their gestures, 398 00:18:38.305 --> 00:18:40.285 and we looked at how often they attended 399 00:18:40.305 --> 00:18:42.125 to each other and things like that. 400 00:18:42.185 --> 00:18:46.365 So we coded it many, many times, um, in the hope of seeing 401 00:18:46.365 --> 00:18:47.485 that there might be, 402 00:18:47.995 --> 00:18:50.325 when there are symbolic content in interactions, 403 00:18:50.325 --> 00:18:53.165 there might be differences that would be, um, 404 00:18:53.185 --> 00:18:56.325 create a rich context for children to learn 405 00:18:56.545 --> 00:18:57.565 and use language. 406 00:18:58.305 --> 00:18:59.565 And this is actually what we found. 407 00:19:01.005 --> 00:19:03.865 So, um, in the symbolic play context here, 408 00:19:03.865 --> 00:19:05.185 we've got some more telephones. 409 00:19:05.685 --> 00:19:09.625 Um, uh, what we found is that the infants had 410 00:19:09.625 --> 00:19:11.905 what we call increased joint attention. 411 00:19:12.165 --> 00:19:16.785 So joint attention is when, um, the parent or the caregiver 412 00:19:16.785 --> 00:19:19.425 and the child are jointly looking, um, 413 00:19:19.425 --> 00:19:21.145 and engaging in an object. 414 00:19:21.565 --> 00:19:24.625 And so this was, joint intention was three times higher in 415 00:19:24.625 --> 00:19:26.465 symbolic play than it was in function. 416 00:19:27.145 --> 00:19:29.745 Functional play joint intention is really important 417 00:19:29.925 --> 00:19:32.985 for the early, um, beginnings 418 00:19:32.985 --> 00:19:35.305 of language acquisition when children are learning things 419 00:19:35.305 --> 00:19:37.665 like, um, common names for things like nouns, 420 00:19:38.535 --> 00:19:40.825 what we found in the symbolic play context, as well 421 00:19:40.885 --> 00:19:44.265 as increased gesture, um, between the, um, 422 00:19:44.525 --> 00:19:46.225 in both the parents and the children. 423 00:19:46.405 --> 00:19:48.985 So, um, these, this, 424 00:19:49.075 --> 00:19:51.665 there were especially more representational gestures. 425 00:19:51.665 --> 00:19:54.145 So, um, pretending that you had a telephone 426 00:19:54.245 --> 00:19:55.545 or pretending to eat something 427 00:19:55.725 --> 00:19:59.235 and stuff like that, we saw increased use 428 00:19:59.335 --> 00:20:00.955 of interactive language. 429 00:20:01.055 --> 00:20:02.915 And I'll show you an example of 430 00:20:02.915 --> 00:20:05.155 that in a moment in comparison to functional play. 431 00:20:05.655 --> 00:20:08.875 And importantly, we also saw that there was a greater to 432 00:20:09.015 --> 00:20:11.915 and fro in, in between in conversation between 433 00:20:12.495 --> 00:20:13.795 the caregivers and the children. 434 00:20:14.255 --> 00:20:17.075 So the children were having more conversational turns 435 00:20:17.105 --> 00:20:21.115 because they were getting more conversation elicited, um, 436 00:20:21.575 --> 00:20:24.155 by their caregivers who are asking more questions. 437 00:20:25.225 --> 00:20:28.285 And it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that, um, 438 00:20:28.345 --> 00:20:30.485 if you're engaged in more conversation 439 00:20:30.625 --> 00:20:32.085 and you are beginning to learn language, 440 00:20:32.085 --> 00:20:33.605 you're probably gonna learn language faster. 441 00:20:33.865 --> 00:20:37.765 And this is exactly what we found, um, in comparison, 442 00:20:38.025 --> 00:20:39.485 in the functional play context. 443 00:20:39.665 --> 00:20:42.485 We saw les joint attention, we saw decreased ge, um, 444 00:20:42.485 --> 00:20:45.485 gesture, and we saw in the parents, instead of the parents 445 00:20:46.205 --> 00:20:48.005 engaging in the children in questions 446 00:20:48.025 --> 00:20:50.685 and getting them to respond, there was a greater use 447 00:20:50.745 --> 00:20:52.045 of, uh, in command. 448 00:20:52.225 --> 00:20:54.005 So do this, put this here. 449 00:20:54.945 --> 00:20:57.565 And these are actually negatively associated 450 00:20:57.635 --> 00:20:59.125 with language acquisition. 451 00:21:00.345 --> 00:21:03.005 So why is the symbolic play context important? 452 00:21:03.305 --> 00:21:06.205 We think it's because, um, this ambiguous context 453 00:21:06.345 --> 00:21:09.325 of symbolic play, um, requires children 454 00:21:09.705 --> 00:21:12.725 and caregivers jointly to create meaning. 455 00:21:13.745 --> 00:21:16.765 And by, if they're to create meaning, 456 00:21:16.765 --> 00:21:18.485 they've gotta negotiate, for instance, 457 00:21:18.515 --> 00:21:20.125 what this means in this context. 458 00:21:20.265 --> 00:21:22.125 And this means they're, there's more, um, 459 00:21:22.125 --> 00:21:24.245 conversational terms and more questions. 460 00:21:24.705 --> 00:21:27.965 And this means that the children are really being tested at 461 00:21:27.965 --> 00:21:29.845 the higher level of their language skills, 462 00:21:30.225 --> 00:21:31.925 and this improves their language skills. 463 00:21:33.665 --> 00:21:36.445 In the functional play, we don't see these behaviors, 464 00:21:36.585 --> 00:21:38.965 and we think this is because, um, the joint activity 465 00:21:38.965 --> 00:21:42.325 that the children are engaging with in has a, um, 466 00:21:42.725 --> 00:21:44.045 a pre-specified meaning. 467 00:21:44.065 --> 00:21:46.725 So if you are, if you are, um, completing a puzzle, 468 00:21:46.755 --> 00:21:48.325 then you'd kind of know what you're doing 469 00:21:48.465 --> 00:21:52.285 and you're just really, um, uh, you're just trying 470 00:21:52.285 --> 00:21:54.165 to work out a, a common task 471 00:21:54.235 --> 00:21:56.165 that doesn't have any sort of symbolic content. 472 00:21:56.665 --> 00:21:59.765 And this is why the parents' language was really more aimed 473 00:21:59.765 --> 00:22:00.805 at behavioral control. 474 00:22:01.745 --> 00:22:03.845 So I'll give you, um, some examples 475 00:22:03.945 --> 00:22:07.165 or two examples, um, one from the symbolic play context 476 00:22:07.265 --> 00:22:10.725 of an interaction and one from a functional play context. 477 00:22:11.115 --> 00:22:12.405 This is when the children were two. 478 00:22:13.145 --> 00:22:15.445 So, um, this is from a symbolic play context. 479 00:22:15.585 --> 00:22:17.445 And what you have here, I'll just read it out for you. 480 00:22:18.115 --> 00:22:21.325 Here, we have the mother saying, oh, what is he doing? 481 00:22:21.355 --> 00:22:23.325 Referring to their dad who wasn't there? 482 00:22:23.825 --> 00:22:25.805 And then the child saying, going to the shop. 483 00:22:26.305 --> 00:22:28.445 And then the mother then follows in 484 00:22:28.445 --> 00:22:30.645 and says, um, oh, has he gone to the shop? 485 00:22:30.645 --> 00:22:31.645 And the child says, yes. 486 00:22:31.905 --> 00:22:33.925 And then she's, um, following it even further 487 00:22:34.425 --> 00:22:36.925 and is asking, what is he doing, um, at the shop? 488 00:22:38.415 --> 00:22:40.395 And the child says, um, data roles. 489 00:22:40.695 --> 00:22:43.395 And this is referring to, um, to the sister. 490 00:22:43.495 --> 00:22:44.995 So the child has brought the sister 491 00:22:45.055 --> 00:22:47.715 who also isn't there into this interaction. 492 00:22:48.575 --> 00:22:50.715 And the, and then the mother follows in more 493 00:22:50.715 --> 00:22:53.795 and says, ah, um, is he getting roles for, um, your sister? 494 00:22:54.695 --> 00:22:57.755 And, um, and she says, okay, 495 00:22:58.095 --> 00:22:59.435 and then is that for your lunch? 496 00:22:59.455 --> 00:23:01.955 And then the child says, yes. And then they finally finish 497 00:23:01.955 --> 00:23:04.115 this interaction with the mother saying, oh, yummy. 498 00:23:04.935 --> 00:23:06.915 So what we see here is something interesting. 499 00:23:07.055 --> 00:23:09.275 Um, the mother is asking a lot 500 00:23:09.295 --> 00:23:11.195 of questions as we can see here. 501 00:23:11.975 --> 00:23:15.315 And in doing so, she's allowing the child to be sort 502 00:23:15.395 --> 00:23:19.075 of an equal partner in the creation of this, um, 503 00:23:19.245 --> 00:23:20.915 particular play episode. 504 00:23:21.655 --> 00:23:23.755 So the child here is deciding on the content 505 00:23:23.895 --> 00:23:24.915 of what's going on, 506 00:23:25.055 --> 00:23:28.115 and the mother is scuff scaffolding the exchange 507 00:23:28.215 --> 00:23:30.875 by inviting the child to elaborate on the scene. 508 00:23:32.515 --> 00:23:36.775 If we compare this, uh, to a, a functional play context, 509 00:23:37.475 --> 00:23:39.015 uh, where the mother 510 00:23:39.035 --> 00:23:43.895 and the child are completing a puzzle, we see, um, less, uh, 511 00:23:44.405 --> 00:23:46.485 interaction on behalf of the child 512 00:23:46.545 --> 00:23:48.925 or less, um, yeah, definitely less interaction on behalf 513 00:23:48.925 --> 00:23:50.285 of the child who doesn't speak much at all. 514 00:23:50.785 --> 00:23:52.125 So the child just starts out 515 00:23:52.145 --> 00:23:53.725 and says that orange, um, 516 00:23:53.725 --> 00:23:55.045 these are really young children, right? 517 00:23:55.065 --> 00:23:57.525 So they're not, they're not very grammatical just yet. 518 00:23:58.065 --> 00:23:59.645 And then the child says, pop it here. 519 00:23:59.825 --> 00:24:02.125 And then the mother says, oh, no, no, um, 520 00:24:02.275 --> 00:24:03.405 look, this is yellow. 521 00:24:03.865 --> 00:24:06.845 And um, then she goes on because of orange. 522 00:24:07.145 --> 00:24:09.885 Is this, I see this, this is orange, isn't it? 523 00:24:09.885 --> 00:24:11.205 This is a orange. This is orange. 524 00:24:11.355 --> 00:24:13.005 Yeah, that border is orange. 525 00:24:13.465 --> 00:24:15.525 Um, and these are yellow, aren't they? 526 00:24:16.305 --> 00:24:20.925 So, um, really what's going on here is the mother is, 527 00:24:21.185 --> 00:24:23.985 uh, kind of directing the child. 528 00:24:24.275 --> 00:24:26.305 She's teaching colors, which is fine. 529 00:24:26.485 --> 00:24:29.425 Um, so isn't, this isn't a bad thing per se, 530 00:24:30.205 --> 00:24:32.825 but, um, notice where in symbolic play, 531 00:24:32.825 --> 00:24:35.505 the child was an equal conversational partner, adding 532 00:24:35.525 --> 00:24:36.665 and elaborating on the content. 533 00:24:36.845 --> 00:24:38.505 In this exchange, the child is a student 534 00:24:38.565 --> 00:24:39.665 and is being directed, 535 00:24:40.005 --> 00:24:43.625 and, uh, this reduces her capacity to use language 536 00:24:43.645 --> 00:24:46.385 to contribute to the ongoing conversation. 537 00:24:48.685 --> 00:24:52.145 So as an interim summary, um, the symbolic play, uh, 538 00:24:52.145 --> 00:24:54.745 we found is significantly correlated 539 00:24:54.745 --> 00:24:57.825 with language across childhood and in infancy. 540 00:24:58.245 --> 00:25:01.385 We think it constitutes something of a zone 541 00:25:01.385 --> 00:25:02.625 of proximal development. 542 00:25:02.625 --> 00:25:05.585 And for those of you who are aware of, um, Vygotsky, um, 543 00:25:05.585 --> 00:25:08.345 you'll know that this zone, um, the concept of a zone 544 00:25:08.445 --> 00:25:11.705 of proximal development, where, um, we think 545 00:25:11.705 --> 00:25:13.545 that symbolic play acts as one, 546 00:25:13.545 --> 00:25:17.505 because what it does is, um, lets the child with scaffolding 547 00:25:18.125 --> 00:25:20.665 behave at their highest developmental level, 548 00:25:21.165 --> 00:25:22.745 um, in terms of language. 549 00:25:23.965 --> 00:25:25.665 So it provides a rich context full 550 00:25:25.665 --> 00:25:27.225 of communicative opportunities. 551 00:25:27.565 --> 00:25:31.345 And children often take the lead in exchanges and are 552 00:25:31.345 --> 00:25:34.225 therefore promoted to a more equal footing in conversation 553 00:25:35.285 --> 00:25:37.345 for this rich and often self-directed. 554 00:25:37.345 --> 00:25:41.345 Yet, sc scaffolded context may underlie the symbolic play 555 00:25:41.585 --> 00:25:43.985 language link, especially in infancy. 556 00:25:46.205 --> 00:25:48.025 So that was, um, infancy 557 00:25:48.165 --> 00:25:50.825 and a, a whistle stop tour through, um, a lot 558 00:25:50.825 --> 00:25:53.185 of the work we've been doing, uh, over the last decade. 559 00:25:54.005 --> 00:25:56.705 Um, but now I wanna talk about play and later language. 560 00:25:56.945 --> 00:25:59.945 'cause it isn't the case, although probably pretend play 561 00:25:59.965 --> 00:26:03.185 really peaks around four, although that's the argument. 562 00:26:03.365 --> 00:26:06.705 I'm not sure if that's actually, um, been, uh, proven. 563 00:26:07.645 --> 00:26:11.585 Um, children still play well, well into their, um, um, 564 00:26:11.655 --> 00:26:12.705 primary school years. 565 00:26:13.045 --> 00:26:15.985 And, uh, our meta-analysis suggested 566 00:26:15.985 --> 00:26:19.305 that the play language link is still there when children are 567 00:26:19.305 --> 00:26:21.385 at least, um, aged, uh, six or seven. 568 00:26:21.585 --> 00:26:23.025 I think we went up to six actually. 569 00:26:23.725 --> 00:26:28.545 Um, so, uh, is there an association between play 570 00:26:28.605 --> 00:26:29.785 and later language? 571 00:26:30.165 --> 00:26:31.945 And it seems like there is. 572 00:26:33.205 --> 00:26:35.465 So, um, this brings me to the notion 573 00:26:35.485 --> 00:26:36.825 of imaginary companions. 574 00:26:36.825 --> 00:26:38.985 I'll tell you a little bit about some of the research 575 00:26:38.985 --> 00:26:41.065 that I've done and what other people have found. 576 00:26:41.685 --> 00:26:43.965 So we use imaginary companions here 577 00:26:43.965 --> 00:26:46.405 because they're what we'd call high fantasy children. 578 00:26:46.405 --> 00:26:48.565 They're children who engage in, um, lots 579 00:26:48.565 --> 00:26:49.725 and lots of pretend play. 580 00:26:50.425 --> 00:26:51.925 But for those of you who don't know 581 00:26:51.925 --> 00:26:54.125 what an imaginary companion, well, I'm sure you know 582 00:26:54.125 --> 00:26:55.405 what an imaginary companion is, 583 00:26:55.405 --> 00:26:58.045 but how do we define it scientifically, I suppose? 584 00:26:58.585 --> 00:27:02.045 So the way we define it is a, uh, very vivid, 585 00:27:02.235 --> 00:27:03.245 imaginary character. 586 00:27:03.265 --> 00:27:04.885 So it can be a person, an animal, 587 00:27:04.945 --> 00:27:08.165 or an object with which the child interacts during his 588 00:27:08.165 --> 00:27:10.245 or her play, and daily activities, 589 00:27:10.725 --> 00:27:12.645 although the companion does not actually exist, 590 00:27:12.825 --> 00:27:14.885 it is very real to the child who endows it 591 00:27:14.885 --> 00:27:17.485 with an individual personality conscious, and consciousness. 592 00:27:18.105 --> 00:27:21.325 As a consequence, the child often refers conversationally 593 00:27:21.325 --> 00:27:23.765 to the companion and indicates its presence 594 00:27:23.765 --> 00:27:24.965 throughout the day. 595 00:27:25.585 --> 00:27:28.805 So, as I said, um, children with the Magic companions, 596 00:27:29.025 --> 00:27:30.205 uh, play a lot. 597 00:27:30.345 --> 00:27:31.845 And so it stands to reason. 598 00:27:31.865 --> 00:27:33.525 If they play a lot and they, um, 599 00:27:33.875 --> 00:27:36.405 they are really engaging in a very high form 600 00:27:36.505 --> 00:27:38.085 of symbolic play, then they, 601 00:27:38.555 --> 00:27:42.445 this might confer some advantages to them in their, uh, 602 00:27:43.005 --> 00:27:44.445 language and conversational skills. 603 00:27:45.185 --> 00:27:47.285 And this, this seems to be what we find. 604 00:27:48.145 --> 00:27:51.245 So, uh, we conducted, uh, a study, um, 605 00:27:51.245 --> 00:27:53.805 quite some time ago now on a top, uh, 606 00:27:53.975 --> 00:27:56.765 using a method called referential communication. 607 00:27:57.065 --> 00:28:01.005 So the way this goes is that, uh, an an experimental 608 00:28:01.065 --> 00:28:04.245 or an adult sits at a desk with a child, 609 00:28:04.305 --> 00:28:06.365 and they each have a book of pictures. 610 00:28:07.025 --> 00:28:10.405 And, uh, the pictures, the children are told, um, 611 00:28:10.405 --> 00:28:14.365 that they have to tell the, it's a kind of a game, 612 00:28:14.705 --> 00:28:17.125 and the children have to direct the adult. 613 00:28:17.125 --> 00:28:19.405 And the adult also takes turns to direct the child 614 00:28:19.785 --> 00:28:23.685 to find a picture in their book, um, from an array. 615 00:28:23.865 --> 00:28:25.565 So I'll show you an example here. 616 00:28:26.265 --> 00:28:29.205 So in this item here, what the child is told to do is 617 00:28:29.205 --> 00:28:33.805 to describe the, um, picture in the red border to the, 618 00:28:33.985 --> 00:28:35.125 um, experimenter. 619 00:28:35.305 --> 00:28:37.085 And so they can only use language to do this 620 00:28:37.085 --> 00:28:39.605 because you may have noticed in that schematic, um, 621 00:28:39.605 --> 00:28:41.085 that they can't see each other's books 622 00:28:41.085 --> 00:28:42.685 because there's a barrier between them. 623 00:28:43.735 --> 00:28:46.995 So what the child has to do here is recognize that the, uh, 624 00:28:47.315 --> 00:28:49.155 experimenter needs to know some important, 625 00:28:49.155 --> 00:28:51.755 unique information about that particular clown. 626 00:28:51.935 --> 00:28:56.115 So it needs to say, you need to find the clown with the, uh, 627 00:28:56.505 --> 00:28:58.355 with the green color and the top hat, 628 00:28:58.355 --> 00:29:00.915 because that's the only uniquely identifying 629 00:29:00.915 --> 00:29:02.395 information besides the border. 630 00:29:02.415 --> 00:29:04.075 But they can't say anything about the border 631 00:29:04.075 --> 00:29:06.555 because they're told that the, uh, the book 632 00:29:06.775 --> 00:29:08.955 for the experimenter doesn't have a border around it, 633 00:29:09.175 --> 00:29:10.875 or the target picture doesn't. 634 00:29:11.935 --> 00:29:13.715 So what we found in this study, 635 00:29:13.715 --> 00:29:16.875 and this was children with imaginary companions aged three 636 00:29:16.875 --> 00:29:18.755 years and eight months to six years and five months, 637 00:29:18.775 --> 00:29:21.355 and we compare them to match children without imaginary 638 00:29:21.355 --> 00:29:23.195 companions, we found that children 639 00:29:23.195 --> 00:29:25.115 with imaginary companions were better at doing this. 640 00:29:25.215 --> 00:29:26.235 And we think this is because, 641 00:29:26.615 --> 00:29:30.155 and engaging with an imaginary companion in engaging in lots 642 00:29:30.155 --> 00:29:32.715 of symbolic play means that you are better able 643 00:29:32.735 --> 00:29:35.715 to understand the mind states of other people. 644 00:29:35.935 --> 00:29:38.675 So in this case, the children were better able to understand 645 00:29:38.945 --> 00:29:41.645 that the experimenter needed to know and, 646 00:29:41.665 --> 00:29:44.525 but didn't know some unique information about 647 00:29:44.555 --> 00:29:45.765 this particular picture. 648 00:29:49.905 --> 00:29:53.835 Referential communication isn't the only, um, skill 649 00:29:53.905 --> 00:29:56.195 that children with the magic companions have been shown 650 00:29:56.455 --> 00:29:59.675 to perform higher on than children without them. 651 00:30:00.175 --> 00:30:02.315 Um, another one is narrative language. 652 00:30:02.615 --> 00:30:05.235 Uh, so narrative is storytelling, basically. 653 00:30:05.855 --> 00:30:08.515 And narratives really are the height of spoken language, 654 00:30:08.515 --> 00:30:11.435 and they're also very important as a foundation 655 00:30:11.455 --> 00:30:12.755 to be able to learn to read. 656 00:30:13.415 --> 00:30:17.435 But narratives are hard for children to, um, to produce 657 00:30:17.435 --> 00:30:20.675 because, uh, they're not something that, uh, 658 00:30:20.705 --> 00:30:22.795 they're something that have complex structure. 659 00:30:23.215 --> 00:30:25.235 So they have a sequential linear plot. 660 00:30:25.755 --> 00:30:28.195 A narrative has a beginning, a middle, and an end. 661 00:30:28.295 --> 00:30:30.275 And this, um, varies cross-culturally. 662 00:30:30.375 --> 00:30:33.475 So, um, narratives, um, structure will be different, 663 00:30:33.585 --> 00:30:35.635 somehow different in other cultures. 664 00:30:36.575 --> 00:30:38.995 Um, they have to be cohesive, so they have 665 00:30:38.995 --> 00:30:40.995 to make sense from sentence to sentence, 666 00:30:41.095 --> 00:30:42.995 and they have to have audience design. 667 00:30:43.135 --> 00:30:45.395 So the person you're telling the narrative 668 00:30:45.455 --> 00:30:46.995 to has to understand it. 669 00:30:46.995 --> 00:30:49.715 So it has to be comprehensible and tri. 670 00:30:49.935 --> 00:30:52.755 And Reese found, they did a similar study to ours, 671 00:30:52.755 --> 00:30:54.755 but they used narratives and they found that children with, 672 00:30:54.895 --> 00:30:58.035 uh, a magic companions produce better quality, um, 673 00:30:58.065 --> 00:30:59.315 past event narratives. 674 00:30:59.315 --> 00:31:02.235 And they were better at retelling a narrative than children 675 00:31:02.345 --> 00:31:04.155 without imaginary companions. 676 00:31:05.015 --> 00:31:06.995 Uh, this suggests that children with, uh, 677 00:31:06.995 --> 00:31:09.955 imaginary companions, um, have better narrative scripts. 678 00:31:10.055 --> 00:31:12.555 And they explain this, um, by saying that the, 679 00:31:12.615 --> 00:31:14.595 the story like nature of play, 680 00:31:14.595 --> 00:31:17.555 because play has a story like quality to it, 681 00:31:17.555 --> 00:31:20.395 symbolic play has to have a beginning, a middle, and an end, 682 00:31:20.395 --> 00:31:23.475 and often has resolutions is very narrative like. 683 00:31:23.575 --> 00:31:26.475 And so they argued that en engaging in lots 684 00:31:26.475 --> 00:31:29.915 of imaginary play was, uh, related to, um, 685 00:31:30.155 --> 00:31:31.635 children's narrative language, um, 686 00:31:31.635 --> 00:31:34.795 because of this overlap between these, um, 687 00:31:34.845 --> 00:31:35.995 these two behaviors. 688 00:31:38.365 --> 00:31:42.705 Um, so we've also been interested in, 689 00:31:42.805 --> 00:31:46.465 in narrative language, but in, um, educational setting. 690 00:31:46.725 --> 00:31:49.025 Uh, so this is some work that I did with, uh, 691 00:31:49.025 --> 00:31:52.665 my colleague Karen Stati, uh, um, in, uh, 692 00:31:52.765 --> 00:31:55.265 who works in Melbourne, uh, in Australia. 693 00:31:55.605 --> 00:31:59.865 And so, um, Karen, uh, has done a lot of great work on, uh, 694 00:32:00.335 --> 00:32:02.105 pretend play and children's pretend play. 695 00:32:02.405 --> 00:32:04.865 And she's worked with, um, one particular school 696 00:32:05.215 --> 00:32:07.305 that has a play-based curriculum. 697 00:32:07.725 --> 00:32:09.865 And so what we were doing, we were approached 698 00:32:09.865 --> 00:32:11.785 by the school in order to assess whether 699 00:32:11.985 --> 00:32:16.345 or not their play-based curriculum, um, had advantages, um, 700 00:32:16.445 --> 00:32:20.705 to a standard curriculum that wasn't, um, play-based. 701 00:32:21.405 --> 00:32:24.305 So, um, what we did in a quasi experimental study is 702 00:32:24.305 --> 00:32:28.105 that we recruited, um, children in, uh, who went to schools 703 00:32:28.135 --> 00:32:29.945 with a, that had a traditional, um, 704 00:32:30.465 --> 00:32:32.065 didactic type curriculum. 705 00:32:32.485 --> 00:32:34.705 So, um, and you can tell which one the 706 00:32:34.705 --> 00:32:35.745 didactic classroom is. 707 00:32:35.965 --> 00:32:38.825 Um, so the traditional curriculum involving didactic teacher 708 00:32:38.945 --> 00:32:42.365 led learning, and then we compared it to this sort 709 00:32:42.365 --> 00:32:45.805 of experimental play-based school, um, which was, um, 710 00:32:46.325 --> 00:32:49.005 informed by a whole bunch of ideas around, um, 711 00:32:49.385 --> 00:32:51.685 how play is related to formal learning. 712 00:32:52.585 --> 00:32:57.245 So, um, the way they do this is, um, uh, first of all, 713 00:32:57.285 --> 00:33:00.565 I guess children are seen in this particular play-based 714 00:33:00.565 --> 00:33:04.085 school as competent beings, um, who learn through the world, 715 00:33:04.415 --> 00:33:05.525 learn about the world through 716 00:33:05.555 --> 00:33:07.165 interaction with competent adults. 717 00:33:07.165 --> 00:33:09.525 So this notion of scaffolding, um, 718 00:33:09.525 --> 00:33:10.925 that we're talking about 'em before. 719 00:33:11.545 --> 00:33:15.365 So what happens is, um, when children come to school, uh, 720 00:33:15.665 --> 00:33:17.045 in the morning, they, um, 721 00:33:17.265 --> 00:33:19.845 do what's called a plan do and review. 722 00:33:20.305 --> 00:33:22.565 So they choose the topics that they wanna learn about, 723 00:33:22.565 --> 00:33:26.005 and the teacher helps them construct play episodes on 724 00:33:26.145 --> 00:33:27.485 the, on those topics. 725 00:33:28.515 --> 00:33:30.935 Uh, so for example, um, in the classroom, 726 00:33:31.195 --> 00:33:33.215 the children have explored things like, uh, 727 00:33:33.245 --> 00:33:35.055 what has a son got to do with growing? 728 00:33:35.315 --> 00:33:38.295 And the teacher's role is to find their students' strength 729 00:33:38.515 --> 00:33:41.175 and assist them with improving, um, students' learning 730 00:33:41.175 --> 00:33:44.775 through scaffolding and direction and explicit teaching. 731 00:33:45.395 --> 00:33:47.535 Uh, so when the children were exploring the effect 732 00:33:47.535 --> 00:33:49.935 of the sun ongoing, the teacher facilitated the children 733 00:33:49.995 --> 00:33:53.135 to explore placing that included night and day. 734 00:33:53.515 --> 00:33:56.095 And in doing this, the children was extending the children's 735 00:33:56.095 --> 00:33:58.335 logical thinking, uh, through their play. 736 00:33:58.995 --> 00:34:02.695 So what we did in, um, in these, with these two, um, 737 00:34:02.765 --> 00:34:05.415 different types of curricula is, uh, we 738 00:34:06.295 --> 00:34:08.295 measured the children's narrative, um, language skills 739 00:34:08.395 --> 00:34:11.535 and their play skills when they first entered their 740 00:34:11.815 --> 00:34:14.135 reception class within the first month of school. 741 00:34:14.435 --> 00:34:16.175 And then we went back six months later 742 00:34:16.315 --> 00:34:17.695 and we tested their narrative 743 00:34:17.695 --> 00:34:20.215 and play schools again to see if that improved 744 00:34:20.355 --> 00:34:21.975 and to see if there was a relationship 745 00:34:21.975 --> 00:34:23.175 between these two skills. 746 00:34:25.425 --> 00:34:29.005 And what we found, um, is that, uh, in the, uh, 747 00:34:29.375 --> 00:34:33.085 play-based school, the children's, um, play skills improved, 748 00:34:33.385 --> 00:34:36.325 um, much more than the children's traditional classroom. 749 00:34:36.505 --> 00:34:39.525 And their narrative skills also improved much more than the 750 00:34:39.645 --> 00:34:40.965 children in the traditional classroom. 751 00:34:41.425 --> 00:34:44.285 So, um, these graphs here show the, um, 752 00:34:44.465 --> 00:34:47.725 the improvement in average units, you can think about it. 753 00:34:47.985 --> 00:34:51.285 Um, and so what we see is that the bar graphs are higher 754 00:34:51.425 --> 00:34:54.285 for the play grades black based, um, children than they are 755 00:34:54.465 --> 00:34:57.405 for the traditional, um, uh, the children, uh, 756 00:34:57.595 --> 00:34:59.165 attending the traditional school. 757 00:34:59.705 --> 00:35:04.325 And what we also found is that these, um, two, the, 758 00:35:04.345 --> 00:35:06.125 the improvement in both their play 759 00:35:06.125 --> 00:35:09.485 and their narrative language was actually, uh, related. 760 00:35:09.545 --> 00:35:11.005 So they were correlated with each other, 761 00:35:11.785 --> 00:35:13.845 and this might not be an accident. 762 00:35:13.985 --> 00:35:16.565 So, uh, Nicolaou has argued that play 763 00:35:16.565 --> 00:35:19.565 and narrative are two complimentary modes of communication. 764 00:35:19.825 --> 00:35:22.485 And so it stands to reason that increases in one. 765 00:35:22.485 --> 00:35:25.205 So increases in play should lead 766 00:35:25.205 --> 00:35:27.565 to increases in narrative language. 767 00:35:29.665 --> 00:35:34.135 Um, and the final study I'll talk about is, um, 768 00:35:34.805 --> 00:35:36.615 also related to narrative language. 769 00:35:37.065 --> 00:35:41.365 And, uh, this is an intervention rather than looking at, uh, 770 00:35:41.585 --> 00:35:44.565 at, um, different curricular types like we did. 771 00:35:45.145 --> 00:35:48.445 So BMA and colleagues, um, found some data that's sort 772 00:35:48.445 --> 00:35:51.485 of consistent with what we found in our experimental study. 773 00:35:52.025 --> 00:35:53.605 So what they did is they, um, 774 00:35:53.905 --> 00:35:56.365 had used what's a called a Play world 775 00:35:56.395 --> 00:35:57.605 narrative intervention. 776 00:35:57.785 --> 00:36:00.685 So they got 32 children aged five to seven years, 777 00:36:01.145 --> 00:36:03.885 and they, um, divided them up into two groups. 778 00:36:04.905 --> 00:36:07.245 One group was the Play World Intervention. 779 00:36:07.625 --> 00:36:09.885 So what happened here is that the children read a book, 780 00:36:09.905 --> 00:36:11.565 and I think the book was, uh, the Line, the Witch 781 00:36:11.565 --> 00:36:15.995 and the Wardrobe, um, they reenacted the scenes, 782 00:36:16.305 --> 00:36:18.355 some scenes with costumes and props. 783 00:36:18.775 --> 00:36:21.595 So, um, so they're really engaging in kind 784 00:36:21.595 --> 00:36:23.195 of play-based reenactment. 785 00:36:23.495 --> 00:36:25.715 And then they had a discussion about it, 786 00:36:25.775 --> 00:36:27.395 and then they did some drawing and painting 787 00:36:27.455 --> 00:36:28.875 or pretend play whatever they wanted 788 00:36:28.875 --> 00:36:30.115 to do after they'd done that. 789 00:36:30.855 --> 00:36:34.115 Um, in order to effectively, um, I guess think about 790 00:36:34.175 --> 00:36:36.195 and reinforce some of the things that they'd learned, 791 00:36:36.975 --> 00:36:38.795 the control group, um, read the book. 792 00:36:38.895 --> 00:36:41.755 Um, they had a discussion and they did some silent reading 793 00:36:41.815 --> 00:36:43.075 and drawing and story writing, 794 00:36:43.135 --> 00:36:45.595 but effectively there was very little play in this 795 00:36:45.595 --> 00:36:49.035 intervention, uh, in the control group, sorry, in comparison 796 00:36:49.135 --> 00:36:50.355 to the Play World Intervention. 797 00:36:51.215 --> 00:36:52.515 And what they found is 798 00:36:52.515 --> 00:36:54.955 that the Play world intervention resulted in significant 799 00:36:54.955 --> 00:36:56.915 growth in the children's narrative language skills. 800 00:36:57.255 --> 00:37:01.635 So showing once again, that adding this, um, notion of play 801 00:37:01.655 --> 00:37:05.035 and this notion of pretense is related to the children's, 802 00:37:05.095 --> 00:37:06.475 uh, narrative language. 803 00:37:08.165 --> 00:37:11.545 So that's, um, pretty much everything I have to say. 804 00:37:11.695 --> 00:37:13.025 I'll just wrap it up now. 805 00:37:13.285 --> 00:37:16.825 Um, so hopefully what, uh, I've, um, convinced you of is 806 00:37:16.825 --> 00:37:19.465 that symbolic or pretend play is important 807 00:37:19.525 --> 00:37:20.665 for language development. 808 00:37:20.695 --> 00:37:22.545 It's not just important for, um, 809 00:37:22.765 --> 00:37:24.345 really early language development, 810 00:37:24.345 --> 00:37:25.585 but it seems to be important 811 00:37:25.845 --> 00:37:28.865 for when children are even in their early 812 00:37:28.865 --> 00:37:30.025 childhood school years. 813 00:37:31.005 --> 00:37:33.505 Um, a key driver is of this relationship, 814 00:37:33.525 --> 00:37:35.345 and this has been one of the real things that we wanted 815 00:37:35.345 --> 00:37:37.625 to find out and why this is the case. 816 00:37:38.045 --> 00:37:40.545 And we think it's because the rich community context 817 00:37:40.815 --> 00:37:42.225 that symbolic play creates 818 00:37:42.405 --> 00:37:44.905 and guided by the scaffolding of competent others. 819 00:37:46.205 --> 00:37:49.225 And this really means then that harnessing the power 820 00:37:49.225 --> 00:37:51.145 of play can create the right environment 821 00:37:51.165 --> 00:37:52.745 to improve children's language 822 00:37:52.805 --> 00:37:55.025 and their language related outcomes. 823 00:37:56.325 --> 00:37:59.585 So, um, a lot of the papers that I've talked about here, um, 824 00:37:59.685 --> 00:38:02.705 are available from this website if you'd just like to, um, 825 00:38:02.705 --> 00:38:04.585 you can click on the link or you can go to it 826 00:38:04.585 --> 00:38:05.705 and download those papers. 827 00:38:06.365 --> 00:38:08.985 Um, also there's a great paper that I'd, um, 828 00:38:09.095 --> 00:38:11.985 also recommend you reading if you're interested 829 00:38:12.125 --> 00:38:13.345 in further reading. 830 00:38:13.445 --> 00:38:16.305 And that's this one by, uh, Weisberg Etal, 831 00:38:16.305 --> 00:38:17.705 which has guided play principles 832 00:38:17.705 --> 00:38:20.265 and practices in the journal current directions 833 00:38:20.285 --> 00:38:21.465 in psychological science. 834 00:38:22.125 --> 00:38:26.445 So thank you for your attention and, um, that's it. 835 00:38:26.945 --> 00:38:29.285 Lovely. No, that was, that was brilliant, Evan. 836 00:38:29.395 --> 00:38:31.965 That was brilliant. It was just absolutely spot on as well 837 00:38:32.025 --> 00:38:33.045 for Tells toolkit 838 00:38:33.225 --> 00:38:35.405 and kind of the audience that we're working with. 839 00:38:35.985 --> 00:38:38.925 Um, so I just wanted to kinda ask you a few questions. 840 00:38:39.585 --> 00:38:42.605 Um, we have a big issue with children in the UK coming 841 00:38:42.605 --> 00:38:44.445 to school with very low levels of language. 842 00:38:45.025 --> 00:38:48.005 Um, and in particular it's been a big issue after Covid. 843 00:38:48.705 --> 00:38:51.765 Um, I just wondered what you had to say around that, 844 00:38:51.825 --> 00:38:55.165 and also where you've seen maybe changes in society 845 00:38:55.225 --> 00:38:57.165 and things that have happened over time in terms 846 00:38:57.265 --> 00:39:00.365 of symbolic play and play in general 847 00:39:00.545 --> 00:39:01.965 and that kind of link with language. 848 00:39:03.215 --> 00:39:07.835 Yeah. So, um, the study that we did 849 00:39:07.865 --> 00:39:12.515 with the play-based curriculum, actually the had a, 850 00:39:12.665 --> 00:39:16.075 they had a really forward thinking principal, um, 851 00:39:16.075 --> 00:39:20.075 so head teacher and it, it was a, a, a school 852 00:39:20.075 --> 00:39:22.315 that was in a low socioeconomic area, 853 00:39:23.055 --> 00:39:25.435 and they, they were really noticing 854 00:39:25.435 --> 00:39:27.355 that their children came in with low levels of language. 855 00:39:27.735 --> 00:39:30.915 And so that's why they, they, uh, decided 856 00:39:31.135 --> 00:39:33.595 to put together this, um, play-based curriculum. 857 00:39:34.175 --> 00:39:36.035 Uh, and it was in concert with a, 858 00:39:36.035 --> 00:39:38.635 an educationist educationalist called Karen Walker. 859 00:39:39.145 --> 00:39:42.475 Okay. Which I didn't mention in, in, uh, in, in the talk. 860 00:39:43.055 --> 00:39:45.915 So, um, I think that actually play 861 00:39:46.095 --> 00:39:50.235 as a context creates a non-threatening environment 862 00:39:50.295 --> 00:39:52.395 for children to come in with low le 863 00:39:52.455 --> 00:39:54.075 who have low levels of language. 864 00:39:54.575 --> 00:39:58.955 And there's some other evidence to, to tentatively suggest 865 00:39:58.955 --> 00:40:03.435 that children, um, who may be come from more deprived areas 866 00:40:03.535 --> 00:40:06.235 or lower socioeconomic status may benefit more from these 867 00:40:06.235 --> 00:40:07.235 types of interventions. 868 00:40:07.235 --> 00:40:10.835 Then say children from high SES who probably get a lot of 869 00:40:10.835 --> 00:40:12.395 that support at home and, 870 00:40:12.855 --> 00:40:16.755 and from many other enrichment, uh, enrichment activities 871 00:40:16.755 --> 00:40:17.995 that they engage in. 872 00:40:18.375 --> 00:40:22.315 So I think that, uh, if anything, especially 873 00:40:22.365 --> 00:40:25.315 after covid, if children are having, uh, coming in 874 00:40:25.315 --> 00:40:28.195 with low levels, then it's probably even more important 875 00:40:28.195 --> 00:40:31.635 to have these types of, um, of play-based, uh, uh, 876 00:40:32.715 --> 00:40:35.395 curricular or play-based activities, um, 877 00:40:35.495 --> 00:40:37.155 for children in say, reception 878 00:40:37.215 --> 00:40:38.235 and, and, and things like that. 879 00:40:38.235 --> 00:40:41.875 Rather than worrying about formal kind of learning of say, 880 00:40:42.015 --> 00:40:46.195 um, of, um, of letter sound patterns and things like that. 881 00:40:46.395 --> 00:40:48.795 I think those things can come after once they build a 882 00:40:48.795 --> 00:40:50.235 foundation of spoken language. 883 00:40:50.625 --> 00:40:52.275 Yeah, no, I think that's a really important message 884 00:40:52.275 --> 00:40:54.915 to get across because I know that in some schools 885 00:40:55.955 --> 00:40:58.475 I think there's that worry of children falling behind 886 00:40:58.575 --> 00:41:01.195 and often they're put into more interventions 887 00:41:01.195 --> 00:41:02.875 and more groups to help 'em catch up, 888 00:41:02.875 --> 00:41:03.875 but that means that they're taken 889 00:41:03.905 --> 00:41:05.035 away from the play of their friends. 890 00:41:05.695 --> 00:41:07.075 So yeah, I think 891 00:41:07.075 --> 00:41:08.955 that's a really important message to get across there. 892 00:41:09.295 --> 00:41:11.355 In terms of the research that you've done, have you 893 00:41:12.305 --> 00:41:15.435 seen any, have you kind of looked at different times of ways 894 00:41:15.435 --> 00:41:16.835 that children acquire language 895 00:41:16.835 --> 00:41:18.355 and maybe the play is one 896 00:41:18.355 --> 00:41:20.035 of the more powerful ways of doing that? 897 00:41:22.635 --> 00:41:24.015 Um, we haven't, 898 00:41:24.575 --> 00:41:26.735 I guess the thing about language is it's so complicated. 899 00:41:27.995 --> 00:41:29.575 So one of the, yeah, and, and 900 00:41:29.575 --> 00:41:31.935 because it's really, well, as we all know, it takes, 901 00:41:32.085 --> 00:41:34.485 even though children are very good at learning, 902 00:41:34.665 --> 00:41:36.925 it does take a long time for them to be, to be 903 00:41:37.645 --> 00:41:38.965 competent conversationalists. 904 00:41:39.825 --> 00:41:44.535 So, um, I guess it's really hard to do a study 905 00:41:44.535 --> 00:41:45.935 where you look at all 906 00:41:45.935 --> 00:41:48.295 of the possible contributing factors altogether. 907 00:41:48.995 --> 00:41:51.495 Um, but I guess the result 908 00:41:51.615 --> 00:41:54.455 of our meta-analysis really showed that the, the, 909 00:41:54.725 --> 00:41:59.255 that symbolic play is one of the stronger associations 910 00:41:59.285 --> 00:42:02.575 that might exist actually, and more, not only stronger, 911 00:42:02.635 --> 00:42:07.055 but um, more, um, uh, persistent actually. 912 00:42:07.755 --> 00:42:09.535 So, um, so yeah, I guess 913 00:42:09.535 --> 00:42:11.495 that's the best answer I can give to that question. 914 00:42:11.755 --> 00:42:14.575 Um, because uh, I would be, um, 915 00:42:14.685 --> 00:42:16.935 selling my colleagues out if I said other things 916 00:42:16.955 --> 00:42:18.575 didn't matter as well. Yeah, yeah, 917 00:42:18.605 --> 00:42:19.605 Yeah. That's it. And 918 00:42:19.605 --> 00:42:21.175 also you could see the big difference between 919 00:42:21.205 --> 00:42:23.695 that more formal teaching and formal setting 920 00:42:24.195 --> 00:42:25.535 and that more play-based learning. 921 00:42:25.715 --> 00:42:27.935 So that's kind of real evidence towards that working. 922 00:42:28.765 --> 00:42:32.055 Yeah, and I think that the important thing about the, 923 00:42:32.055 --> 00:42:35.775 especially in educational context too, is to understand 924 00:42:35.805 --> 00:42:37.215 that, um, a couple of things. 925 00:42:37.355 --> 00:42:39.535 And the first is that when children are able to learn 926 00:42:39.535 --> 00:42:41.695 through play, they have agency over what they're doing. 927 00:42:42.195 --> 00:42:43.255 So to be able to choose 928 00:42:43.255 --> 00:42:44.015 what they're doing means 929 00:42:44.255 --> 00:42:45.095 probably they're gonna learn better. 930 00:42:45.715 --> 00:42:47.975 And that's a super, super important thing to remember. 931 00:42:48.075 --> 00:42:52.615 And when you are only, um, only directing them, 932 00:42:52.765 --> 00:42:54.135 then they don't have agency. 933 00:42:54.135 --> 00:42:56.735 And potentially that means that they're not going to be so 934 00:42:56.915 --> 00:42:58.855 as interested or they might not be more 935 00:42:58.915 --> 00:43:00.095 as receptive to learning. 936 00:43:00.515 --> 00:43:03.295 But the other side of it as well is that just letting them, 937 00:43:03.365 --> 00:43:07.375 like play only is not gonna let make them learn either. 938 00:43:07.595 --> 00:43:08.815 So the thing is, it's sort of 939 00:43:09.445 --> 00:43:11.215 molding those two things together, 940 00:43:11.315 --> 00:43:14.775 and that's why that scaffolding is super important, um, 941 00:43:14.915 --> 00:43:17.655 of having that competent other person 942 00:43:17.755 --> 00:43:19.575 to understand the children's agency, 943 00:43:19.575 --> 00:43:22.295 understand their choice, but really pull them along into 944 00:43:22.355 --> 00:43:24.335 the, into the learning environment. 945 00:43:24.765 --> 00:43:26.095 Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. 946 00:43:26.395 --> 00:43:28.615 Um, one of the things we kind of like put at the heart 947 00:43:28.615 --> 00:43:31.095 of everything that we do at Tels Toolkit is this idea 948 00:43:31.095 --> 00:43:33.655 of quality interactions, which I felt like kind 949 00:43:33.655 --> 00:43:35.735 of fed into like a lot of what you were saying, whether it's 950 00:43:35.735 --> 00:43:38.655 that scaffolding, that kind of social element that serve 951 00:43:38.655 --> 00:43:40.695 and return and that kind of like joint attention. 952 00:43:41.555 --> 00:43:43.015 Um, what's the best ways 953 00:43:43.015 --> 00:43:45.135 or the best advice you can give to teachers 954 00:43:45.435 --> 00:43:46.935 and practitioners that are watching this 955 00:43:46.935 --> 00:43:50.055 and the ways that they can support children in this kind 956 00:43:50.055 --> 00:43:51.775 of symbolic play in the things you've been talking about? 957 00:43:54.405 --> 00:43:58.535 Yeah, I'm, I you are probably a much more over it than me 958 00:43:58.635 --> 00:43:59.655 as a practitioner. 959 00:44:00.095 --> 00:44:02.975 I kind of like, I'm the person who just studies it, 960 00:44:03.075 --> 00:44:04.175 uh, more than anything else. 961 00:44:04.235 --> 00:44:07.735 So in terms of tips, I'm not sure I could, um, I, 962 00:44:07.835 --> 00:44:10.735 I'm not sure I would step outta my lane and, and, 963 00:44:11.075 --> 00:44:12.855 and tell people how to do their job. 964 00:44:13.395 --> 00:44:14.775 But I guess the only thing 965 00:44:15.005 --> 00:44:18.615 that I could say is just these guiding principles of, um, 966 00:44:18.915 --> 00:44:22.015 of, of recognizing the agency, 967 00:44:22.035 --> 00:44:23.975 but also understanding that of your role 968 00:44:24.075 --> 00:44:27.775 as a facilitator in, in, in those processes. Uh, 969 00:44:28.365 --> 00:44:29.365 Yeah. And were there things 970 00:44:29.365 --> 00:44:31.015 that you found where 971 00:44:31.665 --> 00:44:32.925 the data was showing you 972 00:44:32.925 --> 00:44:35.365 that really huge impact was happening with language, 973 00:44:35.385 --> 00:44:37.685 but there, what were those kind of common threads? 974 00:44:37.785 --> 00:44:39.965 And I'm kind of guessing it was that back 975 00:44:39.965 --> 00:44:41.685 and forth, that warmth, that re like 976 00:44:41.685 --> 00:44:43.045 relationship between people? 977 00:44:44.145 --> 00:44:46.605 No, it was some, it was, I didn't show the slide 978 00:44:46.665 --> 00:44:48.405 and it was in an earlier version of the talk, 979 00:44:48.465 --> 00:44:52.165 but what we find that is most, um, that comes 980 00:44:52.165 --> 00:44:54.765 through the strongest is, uh, the back 981 00:44:54.765 --> 00:44:57.005 and forth is what we call the conversational turns. 982 00:44:57.665 --> 00:45:00.565 So the, when, when conversation is swapping 983 00:45:00.565 --> 00:45:01.805 between the caregivers 984 00:45:01.805 --> 00:45:04.805 and the children, that's when, um, when it happens a lot 985 00:45:04.805 --> 00:45:06.845 between particular pairs, 986 00:45:07.215 --> 00:45:10.085 those children are learning language a lot faster. 987 00:45:10.585 --> 00:45:15.045 And so yeah, it really is that, that um, that uh, 988 00:45:16.605 --> 00:45:20.575 elevating the children to, um, these equal, uh, 989 00:45:20.715 --> 00:45:23.895 conversational partners where you're letting them, uh, 990 00:45:23.895 --> 00:45:26.295 as I showed in that example, you're letting them, um, 991 00:45:26.305 --> 00:45:28.255 guide the content, but you are, um, 992 00:45:28.435 --> 00:45:30.455 but you are also taking them or, 993 00:45:30.955 --> 00:45:32.215 or you are taking their lead. 994 00:45:32.795 --> 00:45:35.935 And extending those interactions means 995 00:45:35.935 --> 00:45:38.495 that effectively the children are, um, 996 00:45:39.085 --> 00:45:40.935 getting more opportunities to speak 997 00:45:40.955 --> 00:45:42.615 and if they have more opportunities to speak, 998 00:45:42.615 --> 00:45:44.095 they're probably learning more. 999 00:45:44.755 --> 00:45:47.295 Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that fits in really nice. 1000 00:45:47.355 --> 00:45:49.855 We talk a lot about kind of like used to questioning 1001 00:45:50.035 --> 00:45:52.095 and kind of taking on more of a role 1002 00:45:52.095 --> 00:45:54.495 of play partner rather than like 1003 00:45:54.495 --> 00:45:56.855 where you were talking about that kind of the different toys 1004 00:45:56.945 --> 00:45:58.695 where you had something that was a lot more closed 1005 00:45:59.075 --> 00:46:00.375 and then you had things that were a lot more open 1006 00:46:00.375 --> 00:46:03.895 where people were just playing together and it was more chat 1007 00:46:03.895 --> 00:46:05.015 and things through rather than, 1008 00:46:05.015 --> 00:46:06.615 what is this and what color is it? 1009 00:46:06.635 --> 00:46:08.535 And you know, can you tell me how many you've got? 1010 00:46:08.635 --> 00:46:11.135 And kind of those kind of, the use of questions 1011 00:46:11.135 --> 00:46:12.615 and the use of the way that they're talking 1012 00:46:13.135 --> 00:46:14.215 I think has just really kind 1013 00:46:14.215 --> 00:46:15.575 of taken on more of that play partner. 1014 00:46:16.235 --> 00:46:17.975 So you could see that coming through all the things 1015 00:46:17.975 --> 00:46:19.655 that you were saying, but yeah. 1016 00:46:19.925 --> 00:46:21.615 Yeah, yeah. I think that's really good. 1017 00:46:22.115 --> 00:46:25.375 Um, is there like more information you might have around, 1018 00:46:25.395 --> 00:46:27.175 um, 'cause it was quite interesting when you were showing 1019 00:46:27.175 --> 00:46:30.015 some of those toys that were quite closed. 1020 00:46:30.795 --> 00:46:34.215 Um, and like I imagine that there's probably some toys 1021 00:46:34.215 --> 00:46:35.295 that can be quite limiting. 1022 00:46:35.795 --> 00:46:38.215 And I know with my own daughter, I've got a 2-year-old, um, 1023 00:46:38.595 --> 00:46:40.535 and it doesn't matter, there's often things that you put out 1024 00:46:40.535 --> 00:46:42.695 and she uses them in very different ways to the way 1025 00:46:42.695 --> 00:46:45.495 that they're intended and she's way more happy playing 1026 00:46:45.495 --> 00:46:46.535 with a stick than she is 1027 00:46:46.535 --> 00:46:47.975 with something that's been bought from a shop. 1028 00:46:48.475 --> 00:46:51.175 But is there any kind of research information 1029 00:46:51.235 --> 00:46:52.775 or things that you've kind of looked into? 1030 00:46:52.805 --> 00:46:53.805 Toys 1031 00:46:55.265 --> 00:46:58.725 We chose, we did a bit of research on those, uh, on how 1032 00:46:58.725 --> 00:47:00.005 to choose those toys. 1033 00:47:00.465 --> 00:47:04.245 Uh, and so, um, what we wanted 1034 00:47:04.305 --> 00:47:08.405 to do was choose things in the past had been shown 1035 00:47:08.425 --> 00:47:12.245 to elicit these what we symbolic play behaviors. 1036 00:47:12.945 --> 00:47:15.885 And the really cool thing about it was a lot 1037 00:47:15.885 --> 00:47:18.885 of those things were everyday objects that there were, 1038 00:47:19.115 --> 00:47:22.445 that were related to, um, actually things 1039 00:47:22.445 --> 00:47:24.205 that adults do, right? 1040 00:47:24.385 --> 00:47:26.525 So cooking or talking on a telephone. 1041 00:47:26.705 --> 00:47:29.285 And so that's the really interesting thing 1042 00:47:29.285 --> 00:47:31.205 about symbolic play. 1043 00:47:31.235 --> 00:47:34.325 It's always grounded. It's not often ground. 1044 00:47:34.795 --> 00:47:37.005 Some of the kids are metric companions are definitely not 1045 00:47:37.165 --> 00:47:39.445 grounded in reality, but especially early on 1046 00:47:39.465 --> 00:47:40.685 it is grounded in reality. 1047 00:47:40.825 --> 00:47:44.925 And what children do is they use the, the, the, um, avenue 1048 00:47:44.945 --> 00:47:48.805 of pretense in order to think about the world 1049 00:47:48.865 --> 00:47:50.925 and test hypotheses about the world. 1050 00:47:51.025 --> 00:47:53.925 So if you are cooking something, you can cook something 1051 00:47:53.925 --> 00:47:54.965 and it doesn't matter what you're doing, 1052 00:47:54.965 --> 00:47:56.845 you can change your mind about what you're cooking in 1053 00:47:56.845 --> 00:47:57.845 that moment or whatever. 1054 00:47:58.425 --> 00:48:00.285 Um, you can decide you're drinking tea 1055 00:48:00.305 --> 00:48:01.325 or a milkshake, right? 1056 00:48:01.325 --> 00:48:04.685 It does all of those things. That's the power of of play. 1057 00:48:05.025 --> 00:48:07.765 And it's also the fun, um, part of play. 1058 00:48:08.385 --> 00:48:11.925 So, um, so yeah, like the nice thing about the, the 1059 00:48:12.315 --> 00:48:15.125 what the choices that we made with the symbolic, um, 1060 00:48:15.355 --> 00:48:19.405 toys was that they were, um, really just everyday objects 1061 00:48:19.965 --> 00:48:24.565 grounded in reality that children could then, um, run with. 1062 00:48:25.025 --> 00:48:27.325 Uh, um, and then I guess the other, some 1063 00:48:27.325 --> 00:48:30.085 of the other objects was, um, things like blocks 1064 00:48:30.085 --> 00:48:31.605 that could be turned into anything. 1065 00:48:31.605 --> 00:48:33.205 Like your daughter with a stick, she can turn 1066 00:48:33.205 --> 00:48:36.445 that stick into a magic wand, she can turn it into, um, 1067 00:48:36.545 --> 00:48:38.085 she can use it for any other things. 1068 00:48:38.085 --> 00:48:41.525 She can stir the soup with it or whatever. Um, so yeah. 1069 00:48:41.585 --> 00:48:42.925 And then the, the toys 1070 00:48:43.115 --> 00:48:47.605 that were functional really had a adult defined, um, 1071 00:48:48.065 --> 00:48:50.885 um, function and, um, 1072 00:48:51.105 --> 00:48:53.685 and hence their, hence their term functional play toys. 1073 00:48:54.265 --> 00:48:58.685 And, um, that meant that the boundaries of what was possible 1074 00:48:58.685 --> 00:49:00.445 with them were narrower, right? 1075 00:49:01.185 --> 00:49:04.765 And so that, I guess if there's a guiding principle for, um, 1076 00:49:04.945 --> 00:49:07.325 for like toy selection, it might be, okay, 1077 00:49:07.385 --> 00:49:09.165 how many things can you do with this? 1078 00:49:09.265 --> 00:49:13.725 And this underlies the, the, the fact that pretense 1079 00:49:13.785 --> 00:49:17.165 and fantasy play or pretend plays symbolic play is, um, 1080 00:49:17.545 --> 00:49:19.965 is naturally creative, right? 1081 00:49:20.065 --> 00:49:23.165 And out of that creativity emerges, this is 1082 00:49:23.165 --> 00:49:25.885 what we think happens out of that creativity emerges all 1083 00:49:25.885 --> 00:49:29.605 of these interesting interactive behaviors, which just 1084 00:49:29.745 --> 00:49:32.125 so happen to be important for kids' language, 1085 00:49:32.385 --> 00:49:34.675 uh, yeah. But also fun. 1086 00:49:35.295 --> 00:49:37.955 Yes, that's it. And there's a real move in schools I know 1087 00:49:37.975 --> 00:49:39.995 in the uk, um, in particular 1088 00:49:40.085 --> 00:49:43.155 where people are using more open-ended, 1089 00:49:43.155 --> 00:49:44.515 especially natural resources. 1090 00:49:44.575 --> 00:49:47.235 So for example, they've taken things I call a plastic food 1091 00:49:47.235 --> 00:49:49.635 at the home corner and put things like pine cones and sticks 1092 00:49:49.775 --> 00:49:51.675 and, and conquers and stuff in. 1093 00:49:51.695 --> 00:49:54.995 And so yeah, there's a real move towards using things like 1094 00:49:54.995 --> 00:49:56.715 you said, that having that question of 1095 00:49:56.905 --> 00:49:57.915 what can I do with this? 1096 00:49:58.095 --> 00:50:00.515 Mm-hmm. Are there lots of possible ways that I can use this? 1097 00:50:00.815 --> 00:50:01.955 So yeah. And I think 1098 00:50:01.955 --> 00:50:03.635 that's a really interesting way to think about it. 1099 00:50:04.255 --> 00:50:09.155 So, yeah. Um, uh, in terms of, uh, what happens 1100 00:50:09.215 --> 00:50:12.235 as children grow older, um, I dunno if you've kind 1101 00:50:12.235 --> 00:50:13.835 of followed through any of this research in terms 1102 00:50:13.835 --> 00:50:16.315 of symbolic play and what they're doing in the early years 1103 00:50:16.415 --> 00:50:18.635 and kind of how that leads into adulthood. 1104 00:50:18.825 --> 00:50:21.555 Like I know at Tell took, we find that often 1105 00:50:21.615 --> 00:50:25.615 as children grow older, there's kind of 1106 00:50:26.165 --> 00:50:28.795 less confidence to go with the flow in terms 1107 00:50:28.795 --> 00:50:29.795 of symbolic play. 1108 00:50:30.185 --> 00:50:32.915 Like if you ask a child in kind of like, nursery reception, 1109 00:50:33.495 --> 00:50:34.675 what's, you know, this 1110 00:50:35.055 --> 00:50:36.515 and they're like, it could be a rocket ship 1111 00:50:36.535 --> 00:50:38.755 or it could be a man named Bob. 1112 00:50:38.755 --> 00:50:41.475 Whereas if you ask a child in sort of like year six 1113 00:50:42.045 --> 00:50:43.275 who's like a little bit older, 1114 00:50:43.275 --> 00:50:44.835 they're more often gonna say it's a pen. 1115 00:50:45.735 --> 00:50:48.875 Um, but I don't know, do you notice differences in terms 1116 00:50:48.875 --> 00:50:51.115 of children as they grow older and symbolic play? 1117 00:50:51.785 --> 00:50:55.255 Yeah, I mean it's, um, it, 1118 00:50:55.355 --> 00:50:58.055 it definitely gets socialized out, right? 1119 00:50:58.195 --> 00:51:01.775 And I, I think it's a really good question 1120 00:51:01.875 --> 00:51:05.615 and something that we as scientists, 1121 00:51:05.715 --> 00:51:07.135 we kind of just take for granted. 1122 00:51:07.235 --> 00:51:10.615 But I don't know if anyone's really ever thought very hard 1123 00:51:10.755 --> 00:51:13.695 and long about and studied why this happens. 1124 00:51:14.165 --> 00:51:18.815 Yeah. And I think if you think about it on a society level, 1125 00:51:18.955 --> 00:51:22.215 we probably do socialize children out of it 1126 00:51:22.215 --> 00:51:26.615 because as they get older, they're introduced to more, um, 1127 00:51:26.905 --> 00:51:30.655 scholastic type concepts at, at school, they start 1128 00:51:30.655 --> 00:51:34.215 to do a lot of games with rules in like, so, 1129 00:51:34.595 --> 00:51:35.895 so these might be sport 1130 00:51:35.915 --> 00:51:37.855 or they might be other types of games that they're playing 1131 00:51:37.855 --> 00:51:42.135 as well, which have really defined, um, defined, uh, 1132 00:51:42.135 --> 00:51:44.295 boundaries again, um, because they've got rules. 1133 00:51:44.915 --> 00:51:45.975 So, so yeah. 1134 00:51:45.995 --> 00:51:47.895 And those are enjoyable for sure, 1135 00:51:48.115 --> 00:51:50.895 but they don't, they often lack this symbolic 1136 00:51:50.955 --> 00:51:52.055 or this fantasy element. 1137 00:51:52.615 --> 00:51:56.775 I think where they do though consume fantasy elements is in, 1138 00:51:56.995 --> 00:51:58.615 um, media, right? 1139 00:51:58.715 --> 00:52:02.415 So, and, and in and in, um, literature as well. 1140 00:52:02.635 --> 00:52:07.335 So we never, I always think we never lose this, um, 1141 00:52:07.865 --> 00:52:12.535 propensity to, uh, delight in, in fantasy and pretense, 1142 00:52:12.835 --> 00:52:14.495 but we channel it differently. 1143 00:52:14.675 --> 00:52:16.735 And that's where I, I, that's what I think happens, 1144 00:52:16.875 --> 00:52:21.335 but I think also it doesn't mean that it, 1145 00:52:21.715 --> 00:52:24.455 it, I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing as well, 1146 00:52:24.455 --> 00:52:28.735 that we don't have first person experience of it anymore. 1147 00:52:28.745 --> 00:52:32.295 Right? So sometimes I think things like some analogies are 1148 00:52:32.295 --> 00:52:33.375 things like drama, right? 1149 00:52:33.435 --> 00:52:36.575 So if you, if there act in a play at school 1150 00:52:36.595 --> 00:52:38.935 or something like that, but then still there's defined 1151 00:52:38.935 --> 00:52:39.975 boundaries to that too. 1152 00:52:40.525 --> 00:52:43.575 Yeah. So, um, so, so yeah, I, 1153 00:52:43.735 --> 00:52:46.975 I think there's probably a really good, um, uh, 1154 00:52:47.325 --> 00:52:51.855 there's probably a like a lot of, um, uh, 1155 00:52:52.295 --> 00:52:54.095 I guess leverage there for people to even 1156 00:52:54.635 --> 00:52:56.735 engage in like play-based therapy 1157 00:52:56.915 --> 00:52:58.255 for adults and stuff, right? 1158 00:52:58.475 --> 00:53:02.575 Um, yeah. That I, maybe that's how I'll make my millions, 1159 00:53:04.145 --> 00:53:05.415 Maybe It's true. 1160 00:53:05.415 --> 00:53:06.775 And it's really interesting sometimes 1161 00:53:06.835 --> 00:53:08.575 to see practitioners when they're playing with children 1162 00:53:08.715 --> 00:53:09.815 and you can see 1163 00:53:09.815 --> 00:53:11.495 that the practitioners are really getting into it 1164 00:53:11.495 --> 00:53:12.695 and they've kind of got their own ideas 1165 00:53:12.695 --> 00:53:13.735 that they wanna bring along, 1166 00:53:13.915 --> 00:53:16.495 and they still wanna do that whole thing of standing back 1167 00:53:16.495 --> 00:53:17.895 and letting the child take the lead, but they're like, 1168 00:53:17.895 --> 00:53:19.215 but I really wanna do it myself. 1169 00:53:19.415 --> 00:53:20.735 I really want to kind of get in here. 1170 00:53:21.235 --> 00:53:23.815 So yeah, I think, I think there's a lot of place for adults 1171 00:53:23.875 --> 00:53:27.125 to still play and be playful in that way, which is, 1172 00:53:27.225 --> 00:53:30.125 as a teacher and a practitioner, you, you have that bonus 1173 00:53:30.185 --> 00:53:32.405 of getting to do that, so mm-hmm. 1174 00:53:32.515 --> 00:53:34.525 Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. 1175 00:53:35.065 --> 00:53:37.285 That's it. I get to play now with my toddler, so 1176 00:53:37.285 --> 00:53:38.525 that's, that's fun for me. 1177 00:53:39.065 --> 00:53:40.165 So, yeah. Yeah. And 1178 00:53:40.165 --> 00:53:43.485 There is stuff in that like, um, like there's research on 1179 00:53:43.625 --> 00:53:45.125 how, um, parents sort of 1180 00:53:46.045 --> 00:53:48.365 remember their childhood via their playing with their, 1181 00:53:48.625 --> 00:53:51.685 and it is amazing when you are interacting with, with, um, 1182 00:53:51.695 --> 00:53:54.125 young kids how a lot of these memories 1183 00:53:54.125 --> 00:53:56.725 that somewhere deep in the recesses 1184 00:53:56.725 --> 00:53:59.645 of your brain come up about games you would play or, 1185 00:53:59.945 --> 00:54:02.645 or, um, things that you can, um, do 1186 00:54:02.825 --> 00:54:03.845 and all that kind of stuff. 1187 00:54:03.985 --> 00:54:08.205 So yeah, it's, um, it's, it's, it, it's going back 1188 00:54:08.205 --> 00:54:11.205 to the idea of it being a uniquely human attribute. 1189 00:54:11.365 --> 00:54:13.805 I think it's something that is really essentially human if 1190 00:54:13.805 --> 00:54:15.205 we all do it and, 1191 00:54:15.545 --> 00:54:18.365 and we get stuff out of it even as, even as adults. 1192 00:54:18.875 --> 00:54:20.725 Yeah. I think so. I think so. 1193 00:54:21.265 --> 00:54:22.645 Um, just seeing if there's any other questions 1194 00:54:22.685 --> 00:54:23.725 I wanna kind of ask here. 1195 00:54:24.385 --> 00:54:27.405 Um, but I think I've, I think I've covered a lot of stuff. 1196 00:54:27.465 --> 00:54:30.005 Is there anything you'd want to chat about in addition to 1197 00:54:30.005 --> 00:54:31.285 that, or anything you'd like to add? 1198 00:54:32.505 --> 00:54:34.125 No, I don't think so. Yeah, 1199 00:54:34.725 --> 00:54:36.045 I think this has been, this has been brilliant, Evan. 1200 00:54:36.125 --> 00:54:39.165 I think it's such a good link with like what we're doing 1201 00:54:39.285 --> 00:54:41.365 around the symbolic play and the storytelling, 1202 00:54:41.665 --> 00:54:44.525 and I think it's just a really good message to get out 1203 00:54:44.665 --> 00:54:47.085 to teachers around giving children that opportunity 1204 00:54:47.185 --> 00:54:50.925 for lots more symbolic play and play in general. So, 1205 00:54:51.155 --> 00:54:54.445 Yeah, I think so I, I, I remember being, um, when I, 1206 00:54:54.955 --> 00:54:57.045 many years ago when I lived in the UK 1207 00:54:57.585 --> 00:54:59.965 and I was, um, a junior researcher 1208 00:54:59.965 --> 00:55:02.045 and I would go into like reception classes 1209 00:55:02.265 --> 00:55:04.125 and I'd be testing the kids and stuff, 1210 00:55:04.585 --> 00:55:07.965 and you would, I was not, uh, it was sort of interesting 1211 00:55:08.025 --> 00:55:10.485 to see that, um, even sort of three 1212 00:55:10.485 --> 00:55:12.725 and a half year olds would, would, they would start 1213 00:55:12.755 --> 00:55:14.085 with things like phonics 1214 00:55:14.085 --> 00:55:15.725 and they were learning and stuff like that. 1215 00:55:15.725 --> 00:55:16.925 And I was really quite shocked. 1216 00:55:16.965 --> 00:55:18.605 I thought, wow, three and a half. 1217 00:55:18.785 --> 00:55:21.365 And, and it wasn't all that. 1218 00:55:21.545 --> 00:55:23.405 But I think there is a tendency for us 1219 00:55:23.425 --> 00:55:26.725 to privilege formal learning over, over these 1220 00:55:26.955 --> 00:55:28.645 what often called think thought of 1221 00:55:28.645 --> 00:55:31.165 as quite frivolous concepts that I, 1222 00:55:31.245 --> 00:55:32.805 I don't think they're actually frivolous. 1223 00:55:32.985 --> 00:55:35.725 And that's part of the reason why we do the research is 1224 00:55:35.725 --> 00:55:38.645 because we repeatedly found this, these, um, 1225 00:55:38.655 --> 00:55:40.685 these associations and these, uh, 1226 00:55:40.865 --> 00:55:43.205 and dug deeper in them to find the reasons why. 1227 00:55:43.225 --> 00:55:45.925 And we think that it's, like I said, it's something 1228 00:55:45.925 --> 00:55:47.405 that's very core to humans 1229 00:55:47.505 --> 00:55:51.175 and very core to, um, want to learn 1230 00:55:51.475 --> 00:55:54.135 and enjoy what you're learning. Yes. Yeah. 1231 00:55:54.805 --> 00:55:56.775 Yeah. That's it. And I think also, I think that, 1232 00:55:57.165 --> 00:55:59.575 that it's something that's very hard for schools to measure, 1233 00:56:00.155 --> 00:56:03.575 and there's a real pressure on schools to show impact 1234 00:56:03.835 --> 00:56:05.335 and to show the difference that they're making. 1235 00:56:05.515 --> 00:56:06.735 And I think that 1236 00:56:07.215 --> 00:56:09.175 although we know this is super important stuff, 1237 00:56:09.175 --> 00:56:11.495 and actually without the play that comes underneath, 1238 00:56:12.205 --> 00:56:14.495 then you're never really gonna get those literacy levels 1239 00:56:14.495 --> 00:56:16.695 that you need or the, the, you know, 1240 00:56:16.995 --> 00:56:18.455 the exam results later on. 1241 00:56:18.455 --> 00:56:20.215 Like, you need this in, in core, 1242 00:56:20.215 --> 00:56:21.615 like right at the roots of stuff. 1243 00:56:22.075 --> 00:56:25.525 But I think that often they want to show that impact 1244 00:56:25.525 --> 00:56:27.365 or that change in a very small amount of time, 1245 00:56:27.825 --> 00:56:29.085 and that's very difficult to do, 1246 00:56:29.085 --> 00:56:31.165 which is why your research is super important, 1247 00:56:31.165 --> 00:56:32.685 because it's showing that 1248 00:56:32.955 --> 00:56:35.085 that actually it is something that you can measure. 1249 00:56:35.105 --> 00:56:38.565 And it is a making a big difference. So, so yeah. 1250 00:56:38.595 --> 00:56:39.805 Yeah. Yeah. 1251 00:56:39.835 --> 00:56:43.045 It's a real shame that we think we have to measure mm-hmm. 1252 00:56:43.655 --> 00:56:45.405 Young children. Yeah, 1253 00:56:46.145 --> 00:56:47.145 It really is. It 1254 00:56:47.145 --> 00:56:49.245 really is, isn't it? Yeah. It really is 1255 00:56:49.535 --> 00:56:50.535 Those things. Uh, 1256 00:56:50.535 --> 00:56:53.685 I think it's, yeah, it's, it's, um, anyway, 1257 00:56:54.195 --> 00:56:55.195 Yeah. Have you on that? 1258 00:56:55.195 --> 00:56:57.565 No. Have you gotten any advice for sort 1259 00:56:57.565 --> 00:56:59.205 of practitioners that are in schools that, 1260 00:56:59.595 --> 00:57:01.085 that are passionate about this, 1261 00:57:01.385 --> 00:57:02.645 but find they might have 1262 00:57:02.645 --> 00:57:04.565 that top down pressure coming from head teachers 1263 00:57:04.585 --> 00:57:05.605 or people up above? 1264 00:57:06.035 --> 00:57:07.685 Like what advice might you have? 1265 00:57:08.495 --> 00:57:10.385 Yeah, there's some really good, um, 1266 00:57:11.375 --> 00:57:13.505 there's a really good monograph. 1267 00:57:13.505 --> 00:57:15.745 Like it's a short, I think it's like 90 pages or something. 1268 00:57:15.855 --> 00:57:19.905 It's by, um, there's two researchers in the United States 1269 00:57:19.905 --> 00:57:21.665 who've written a lot about this thing. 1270 00:57:21.665 --> 00:57:24.865 They're called Kathy Hirsh Pasek. Mm-hmm. And Roberta Lenko. 1271 00:57:25.055 --> 00:57:27.825 Yeah. And they wrote a, a great monograph 1272 00:57:28.055 --> 00:57:30.105 that I think I've published in 2009. 1273 00:57:30.385 --> 00:57:33.865 I can't at the moment remember what it, um, what it is, 1274 00:57:33.865 --> 00:57:34.865 but it, uh, what it's called. 1275 00:57:34.925 --> 00:57:36.225 But it was about this 1276 00:57:36.565 --> 00:57:39.425 and about sort of the fact that, um, 1277 00:57:40.135 --> 00:57:44.025 many schools in the United States are really trying to 1278 00:57:44.705 --> 00:57:46.785 increase formal learning, and they're doing things like 1279 00:57:47.365 --> 00:57:49.905 not giving the children recess and things like that. 1280 00:57:50.685 --> 00:57:54.785 Um, and they wrote this great, um, monograph about 1281 00:57:54.965 --> 00:57:57.145 how it's the wrong, it's wrongheaded to do that 1282 00:57:57.285 --> 00:58:01.025 and how all of these, um, benefits children will learn 1283 00:58:01.405 --> 00:58:03.945 and they'll learn well if they're able to, um, 1284 00:58:04.055 --> 00:58:06.025 have the space to, to play. 1285 00:58:06.885 --> 00:58:09.425 So I, yeah, I mean that's super accessible. 1286 00:58:09.445 --> 00:58:14.265 So I'd start some something like there and, um, and, 1287 00:58:14.605 --> 00:58:16.385 and, uh, yeah, 1288 00:58:16.645 --> 00:58:19.945 and that's probably would arm anyone with all of the, all 1289 00:58:19.945 --> 00:58:21.745 of the information they needed to go back 1290 00:58:21.745 --> 00:58:26.065 to their head teacher and say, maybe, maybe rethink, uh, um, 1291 00:58:26.335 --> 00:58:28.185 some of the things that we are doing. Mm-hmm. 1292 00:58:28.375 --> 00:58:29.985 Yeah. That sounds good. That's brilliant. 1293 00:58:29.985 --> 00:58:32.145 No, it's been really, it's been massive, a pleasure to speak 1294 00:58:32.145 --> 00:58:33.705 to you, Evan, like mm-hmm. 1295 00:58:33.785 --> 00:58:35.545 Yeah, I think it's been, it's been great. 1296 00:58:35.615 --> 00:58:37.705 Like some really, really good information in there 1297 00:58:37.705 --> 00:58:39.305 that's gonna be massively helpful for people. 1298 00:58:40.045 --> 00:58:41.465 So, yeah. Yeah. 1299 00:58:41.475 --> 00:58:43.585 Great. I'm glad we finally got to do it. 1300 00:58:44.085 --> 00:58:45.425 I'm glad we finally got to do it. 1301 00:58:45.425 --> 00:58:46.985 We've been planning this for a long time, haven't we? 1302 00:58:47.165 --> 00:58:50.345 So yeah, that's it all the way from Australia, 1303 00:58:51.045 --> 00:58:52.945 but you've been in the UK when we first started 1304 00:58:52.945 --> 00:58:54.065 talking, so Yeah. 1305 00:58:55.775 --> 00:58:57.785 Yeah. That's it. But no, it's been a, 1306 00:58:57.785 --> 00:58:58.905 been a big pleasure talking to you 1307 00:58:58.905 --> 00:59:00.065 and thank you for spending time with us.