WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.765 --> 00:00:13.255 Everybody, uh, welcome to our webinar today. 2 00:00:13.755 --> 00:00:16.775 I'm really excited to have Helen Lugar with me here today 3 00:00:16.875 --> 00:00:19.215 to chat, and this has been a long time actually in 4 00:00:19.215 --> 00:00:20.295 the making, isn't it, Helen? 5 00:00:20.295 --> 00:00:22.055 We've been, we've been talking about doing this webinar 6 00:00:22.275 --> 00:00:24.535 for years now, so we're very excited 7 00:00:24.555 --> 00:00:25.775 to finally be getting it together. 8 00:00:26.555 --> 00:00:29.175 Um, so just a little bit about Helen to start with. 9 00:00:29.625 --> 00:00:32.495 Helen has got tons of experience working with young children 10 00:00:32.635 --> 00:00:35.255 and their families, and she's a qualified earliest teacher 11 00:00:35.285 --> 00:00:36.735 with a background in Montessori. 12 00:00:37.275 --> 00:00:41.335 Um, Helen is an early years consultant and an author, um, 13 00:00:41.395 --> 00:00:44.135 and she wrote the book using Stories to support learning 14 00:00:44.155 --> 00:00:45.495 and development in the early years, 15 00:00:45.835 --> 00:00:47.655 and she's contributed to developing 16 00:00:47.655 --> 00:00:48.815 empathy in the early years. 17 00:00:49.355 --> 00:00:51.735 And she currently writes articles for leading parents 18 00:00:51.875 --> 00:00:53.055 and early years publications. 19 00:00:53.595 --> 00:00:56.335 Um, I first met Helen when she was in charge at the 20 00:00:56.495 --> 00:00:58.735 education list and organizing a conference 21 00:00:58.805 --> 00:01:01.655 with some fantastic speakers like Michael Rosen, 22 00:01:01.845 --> 00:01:04.815 Barbara Isaacs, Jenny Mosley, um, 23 00:01:05.235 --> 00:01:07.255 and just a massive thank you 24 00:01:07.255 --> 00:01:10.255 because Helen Tel Toolkit right at the start while 25 00:01:10.255 --> 00:01:11.295 I was still hand printing bags. 26 00:01:11.475 --> 00:01:13.655 So it was really early days for us when we first met. 27 00:01:14.195 --> 00:01:16.775 Um, and I was really lucky to work 28 00:01:16.775 --> 00:01:18.335 with Helen while she was working 29 00:01:18.765 --> 00:01:20.735 with the empathy focused Think Equal. 30 00:01:21.275 --> 00:01:24.175 Um, and she was a huge part of creating their curriculum, 31 00:01:24.225 --> 00:01:27.215 which has been recognized since with a wise award 32 00:01:27.235 --> 00:01:29.615 for innovation in addressing global challenges. 33 00:01:29.875 --> 00:01:31.655 And I know that they're going from strength to strength. 34 00:01:32.155 --> 00:01:34.055 Um, most of all, I just wanna say 35 00:01:34.055 --> 00:01:37.455 that Helen shares our passion for the power of story, 36 00:01:37.955 --> 00:01:39.975 and along with continuing to write 37 00:01:39.975 --> 00:01:42.615 and speak, she's also embarking on a new learning journey 38 00:01:42.825 --> 00:01:44.535 where she's gonna combine clay therapy 39 00:01:44.645 --> 00:01:45.775 with the storytelling process. 40 00:01:45.955 --> 00:01:47.055 So it's gonna be quite interesting 41 00:01:47.055 --> 00:01:48.055 to hear a little bit about that today. 42 00:01:48.475 --> 00:01:52.215 Um, but not only does she use story as a tool for learning, 43 00:01:52.475 --> 00:01:54.615 but as a tool for change and a way forward. 44 00:01:55.155 --> 00:01:56.975 And I know that that message is gonna come 45 00:01:56.975 --> 00:01:58.055 across today when she speaks. 46 00:01:58.595 --> 00:02:01.295 Um, so I'm really excited to speak with Helen today. 47 00:02:01.515 --> 00:02:03.015 So I'm over to you, Helen. 48 00:02:03.865 --> 00:02:06.525 Ah, Kate. Thank you. That's a lovely intro. Thank you. 49 00:02:06.745 --> 00:02:10.165 And, uh, yes, we've been united in that, uh, 50 00:02:10.425 --> 00:02:12.645 on the Tails toolkit journey from the early days. 51 00:02:13.625 --> 00:02:14.765 No, it was my way back. 52 00:02:14.885 --> 00:02:16.085 I was still kind of making bags 53 00:02:16.185 --> 00:02:18.805 and yeah, the training wasn't even created, so a long, 54 00:02:18.805 --> 00:02:20.605 long time ago, but yeah. 55 00:02:20.795 --> 00:02:21.765 Yeah, yeah. So I'm really 56 00:02:21.765 --> 00:02:23.005 excited to be talking to you today. 57 00:02:23.825 --> 00:02:25.485 Um, so tell me a little bit about your work 58 00:02:25.485 --> 00:02:26.645 with storytelling, Helen. 59 00:02:27.425 --> 00:02:28.725 So, so, yes. 60 00:02:28.865 --> 00:02:31.085 So my work over the past few years has been to do with, 61 00:02:31.085 --> 00:02:33.285 with stories and storytelling, and the book that I wrote 62 00:02:33.545 --> 00:02:35.205 and my journey of researching 63 00:02:35.205 --> 00:02:38.805 and exploring, exploring storytelling started with my love 64 00:02:38.805 --> 00:02:41.245 of literature and what stories teach us. 65 00:02:41.985 --> 00:02:43.605 I'm really passionate about the opportunities 66 00:02:43.605 --> 00:02:46.285 that story offer for learning to occur in a natural way. 67 00:02:46.865 --> 00:02:49.605 And I often use them with children as a base to teach from. 68 00:02:49.665 --> 00:02:51.845 So a sort of jumping off point from which 69 00:02:51.845 --> 00:02:53.245 to explore different subjects. 70 00:02:53.865 --> 00:02:56.325 And my experience in pretty much every part of the world 71 00:02:56.325 --> 00:02:57.445 that I worked in was 72 00:02:57.445 --> 00:02:59.565 that children found stories to be magical. 73 00:03:00.195 --> 00:03:02.045 Yeah. And they found them to be comforting, 74 00:03:02.385 --> 00:03:03.805 and they found them to be wonderful. 75 00:03:04.345 --> 00:03:07.885 Um, I've never encountered a child who was averse to do 76 00:03:08.145 --> 00:03:11.685 to was who was averse to anything to do with storytelling. 77 00:03:12.305 --> 00:03:14.285 And so I started this process of writing the book 78 00:03:14.285 --> 00:03:18.205 with the idea that I would be focused on narrative as input. 79 00:03:18.905 --> 00:03:20.605 But it was an interesting journey 80 00:03:20.605 --> 00:03:22.725 because my research evolved 81 00:03:22.785 --> 00:03:25.605 and it led me to looking at storytelling 82 00:03:25.675 --> 00:03:26.925 from different perspectives. 83 00:03:26.925 --> 00:03:29.885 So yes, how we take stories in and what that does to us 84 00:03:29.985 --> 00:03:32.725 and for us, but also how we tell them 85 00:03:32.865 --> 00:03:34.125 and what that does to us 86 00:03:34.265 --> 00:03:37.845 and for us in terms of our emotions, our cognition, 87 00:03:37.865 --> 00:03:38.885 and our physical health, 88 00:03:39.505 --> 00:03:41.845 and how the story process can literally build up 89 00:03:41.865 --> 00:03:42.925 or break down our lives. 90 00:03:43.825 --> 00:03:46.525 And the key discovery that I feel that I made 91 00:03:46.905 --> 00:03:50.125 and that I'm still making is that our expression, our voice 92 00:03:50.385 --> 00:03:53.525 and the way in which we tell our stories can establish our 93 00:03:53.525 --> 00:03:57.005 sense of personal agency, can help us to hope 94 00:03:57.505 --> 00:03:59.245 and can build resilience in our lives. 95 00:03:59.945 --> 00:04:01.685 And so, I'd like to talk about those things. 96 00:04:01.905 --> 00:04:03.125 And I think today, 97 00:04:03.125 --> 00:04:05.325 because of the situation that we find ourselves in at 98 00:04:05.325 --> 00:04:06.365 present in the world, and 99 00:04:06.365 --> 00:04:09.085 because of the effect I believe it's having on us, um, 100 00:04:10.045 --> 00:04:12.525 I would like to start with a concept of hope. Mm-hmm. 101 00:04:13.145 --> 00:04:14.765 Um, yeah. I I love this idea. 102 00:04:14.805 --> 00:04:17.125 I hope Helen, um, especially in the present day 103 00:04:17.125 --> 00:04:18.485 with everything that's going on at the minute. 104 00:04:18.985 --> 00:04:20.965 Um, can you expand a little bit more on that 105 00:04:20.965 --> 00:04:23.165 and tell us about kind of what hope is 106 00:04:23.225 --> 00:04:24.965 and how that relates to storytelling? 107 00:04:25.955 --> 00:04:28.525 Yeah. So I, I read a, a wonderful definition actually, 108 00:04:28.525 --> 00:04:31.925 of hope over the past few weeks, um, that I'd like to share. 109 00:04:31.925 --> 00:04:33.805 And it's written by Nick Cave, who lost two 110 00:04:33.805 --> 00:04:35.245 of his sons over the past years. 111 00:04:35.825 --> 00:04:37.485 Um, and he's writing, he's responding 112 00:04:37.485 --> 00:04:40.685 to a man called Valerio who's written to him about cynicism 113 00:04:40.705 --> 00:04:42.045 and the struggle to remain hopeful. 114 00:04:42.665 --> 00:04:45.485 And he says something, um, that I found so profound. 115 00:04:45.485 --> 00:04:47.645 He says, hopefulness is not a neutral position. 116 00:04:48.265 --> 00:04:52.165 It is adversarial, and it can lay waste to cynicism. 117 00:04:52.835 --> 00:04:56.285 Each redemptive or loving act as small as you like, such 118 00:04:56.285 --> 00:04:57.485 as reading to your little boy 119 00:04:57.485 --> 00:05:00.005 or showing him a thing you love, or singing him a song 120 00:05:00.225 --> 00:05:03.125 or putting on his shoes, keeps the devil down in the hole. 121 00:05:03.785 --> 00:05:06.485 It says that the world and its inhabitants have value 122 00:05:06.825 --> 00:05:08.205 and are worth to defending. 123 00:05:08.505 --> 00:05:10.685 It says that the world is worth believing in. 124 00:05:11.555 --> 00:05:12.875 I think that's very necessary 125 00:05:13.335 --> 00:05:14.795 to hear at, at this point in time. 126 00:05:15.175 --> 00:05:17.435 And so I'd like to explain a little bit more about 127 00:05:17.435 --> 00:05:19.715 what hope is, because I think many of us consider hope 128 00:05:19.715 --> 00:05:21.715 to be a feeling or an emotion, 129 00:05:22.295 --> 00:05:24.635 and it's often confused with the word wish, which means 130 00:05:24.695 --> 00:05:27.955 to feel or express a strong desire for something that cannot 131 00:05:28.535 --> 00:05:29.795 or probably won't happen. 132 00:05:30.575 --> 00:05:32.875 But hope is actually something far more concrete. 133 00:05:33.295 --> 00:05:34.635 So hope is defined 134 00:05:34.635 --> 00:05:37.515 as a dynamic cognitive motivational system, 135 00:05:37.885 --> 00:05:40.075 which sounds very complex, but if I can explain. 136 00:05:40.415 --> 00:05:43.795 So dynamic speaks of movement, dynamism speaks of movement. 137 00:05:44.185 --> 00:05:45.635 Cognition is about thinking, 138 00:05:46.455 --> 00:05:48.715 and a system is a set of things working together. 139 00:05:49.015 --> 00:05:52.875 Mm-hmm. So hope is actually a moving thinking collection 140 00:05:52.875 --> 00:05:55.715 of parts working together that motivates us. 141 00:05:56.415 --> 00:05:57.695 And it's having a sense 142 00:05:57.695 --> 00:05:59.535 that the future will bring better things, 143 00:05:59.795 --> 00:06:02.855 and that you as an individual can create this 144 00:06:03.235 --> 00:06:05.695 by setting goals, by working out how to get there 145 00:06:06.155 --> 00:06:07.855 and by saying the cause to get there. 146 00:06:08.675 --> 00:06:11.135 Um, the writer, Rebecca Solnit, explains hope 147 00:06:11.275 --> 00:06:14.015 as a beginning, as a basis for action. 148 00:06:14.555 --> 00:06:17.615 And she further explains by comparing it to optimism, 149 00:06:18.135 --> 00:06:19.455 optimism, and pessimism. 150 00:06:19.875 --> 00:06:22.295 So this is interesting. She says, hope is an embrace 151 00:06:22.315 --> 00:06:24.055 of the unknown and the unknowable. 152 00:06:24.565 --> 00:06:26.655 It's an alternative to the certainty 153 00:06:26.655 --> 00:06:28.415 of both optimists and pessimists. 154 00:06:28.795 --> 00:06:30.615 So optimists think it will all be fine 155 00:06:30.615 --> 00:06:31.855 without our involvement. 156 00:06:32.385 --> 00:06:34.575 Pessimists take the opposite position, 157 00:06:35.115 --> 00:06:37.175 but both excuse themselves from acting. 158 00:06:37.555 --> 00:06:39.815 Mm-hmm. And hope is actually the belief that 159 00:06:39.845 --> 00:06:41.175 what we do matters. 160 00:06:41.555 --> 00:06:44.695 Mm-hmm. And something that I found so fascinating is 161 00:06:44.695 --> 00:06:47.535 that hope is the single best predictor 162 00:06:47.755 --> 00:06:49.895 of wellbeing across lifespan. 163 00:06:50.195 --> 00:06:53.135 That's interesting. That's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. 164 00:06:53.195 --> 00:06:56.695 We, we need hope to live. We need hope to, to survive. 165 00:06:57.275 --> 00:06:59.215 And so, you know, when it comes to our children, 166 00:06:59.885 --> 00:07:01.815 hope can be nurtured and developed, 167 00:07:01.995 --> 00:07:03.135 and we can model it for them. 168 00:07:03.275 --> 00:07:06.255 And this is where story comes in in a really powerful way. 169 00:07:06.715 --> 00:07:09.615 So research shows that hope is formed in the lives 170 00:07:09.635 --> 00:07:11.775 of children when they're connected to adults 171 00:07:12.075 --> 00:07:14.335 who believe in them and who teach them 172 00:07:14.335 --> 00:07:15.615 to mentally time travel. 173 00:07:16.075 --> 00:07:17.895 Yes. So there's a wonderful professor, 174 00:07:17.895 --> 00:07:20.055 professor Richard Miller at the Sanford School of Social 175 00:07:20.155 --> 00:07:22.935 and Family Dynamics at Arizona State University, 176 00:07:23.275 --> 00:07:25.255 and he's been studying Hope for four decades. 177 00:07:25.915 --> 00:07:28.135 So he explains this mental time travel 178 00:07:28.355 --> 00:07:31.815 as recalling past events that help us to understand 179 00:07:31.845 --> 00:07:34.815 what works and what doesn't as we plan for the future. 180 00:07:35.245 --> 00:07:37.295 Yeah. So actually that evaluation of the past, 181 00:07:37.365 --> 00:07:40.095 that mentally time traveling, travel, you know, that that, 182 00:07:40.095 --> 00:07:42.815 that looking and assessing is not a negative thing. 183 00:07:42.845 --> 00:07:45.335 It's a positive thing. It's a hopeful thing. Yeah. 184 00:07:45.675 --> 00:07:49.295 And, um, uh, another wonderful researcher that I came across 185 00:07:49.295 --> 00:07:51.735 who works in South Africa, a lady called Avid Cherrington, 186 00:07:52.125 --> 00:07:54.415 says that hope implies taking action 187 00:07:54.995 --> 00:07:57.015 to pursue a future vision. 188 00:07:57.275 --> 00:07:59.335 Mm-hmm. And really, if we think about it, 189 00:07:59.435 --> 00:08:00.815 how do we have a future vision? 190 00:08:01.315 --> 00:08:02.495 We imagine it. Yes. 191 00:08:02.595 --> 00:08:05.735 We visualize it, we tell, we tell ourselves a future story. 192 00:08:06.315 --> 00:08:08.695 Yes. So we cannot hope without imagination 193 00:08:08.695 --> 00:08:10.255 and without mental time travel. 194 00:08:10.355 --> 00:08:13.535 So we visit the stories of both the past and our future. 195 00:08:14.195 --> 00:08:16.255 Yes. So really hope is imagining 196 00:08:16.255 --> 00:08:17.815 and then living out a new story. 197 00:08:17.995 --> 00:08:20.695 And what what's important here is not just the imagination 198 00:08:20.695 --> 00:08:22.495 part, as Sonet says, that's the beginning. 199 00:08:22.955 --> 00:08:24.855 So it's the doing part too. 200 00:08:25.595 --> 00:08:29.255 And just as we say, love is a verb, hope is also a verb. 201 00:08:29.755 --> 00:08:32.055 So it's something that, that has the active part. 202 00:08:32.795 --> 00:08:34.455 And, um, I love this, you know, 203 00:08:34.455 --> 00:08:36.615 hope once ignited gains momentum 204 00:08:36.995 --> 00:08:40.495 and is self-sustaining, it's not easily extinguished. 205 00:08:40.995 --> 00:08:42.655 So when we think in a hopeful way, 206 00:08:42.755 --> 00:08:45.655 and we, we act in a hopeful way, this becomes a way 207 00:08:45.655 --> 00:08:48.695 of being, and then hope is obvi. 208 00:08:48.695 --> 00:08:50.655 You know, if you think about it, 209 00:08:50.655 --> 00:08:53.535 hope is considered this is this Paul Fre mm-hmm. 210 00:08:54.115 --> 00:08:58.005 To be a core underpinning of education and all its processes 211 00:08:58.005 --> 00:09:00.525 because it's the belief that we're in the process 212 00:09:00.625 --> 00:09:02.365 of becoming, we are en route. 213 00:09:02.365 --> 00:09:04.445 Right. And of course, this makes perfect sense 214 00:09:04.445 --> 00:09:07.925 because how can edu any education take place without a 215 00:09:07.925 --> 00:09:10.845 belief in a better tomorrow where an individual has learned 216 00:09:10.945 --> 00:09:12.365 and, and grown and developed. 217 00:09:12.425 --> 00:09:15.205 So, uh, Paula Fre actually said once remark that 218 00:09:15.205 --> 00:09:17.725 with ad hope, there is no way we can even start thinking 219 00:09:17.725 --> 00:09:19.525 about education. Mm-hmm. 220 00:09:20.035 --> 00:09:22.445 Yeah. I, I love this, Helen. It's really interesting. 221 00:09:22.565 --> 00:09:24.925 I really like the idea of future time travel, 222 00:09:25.155 --> 00:09:27.965 because when I think about the children that I've worked 223 00:09:27.965 --> 00:09:31.685 with and the adults that I know that have, have problems, 224 00:09:32.025 --> 00:09:34.325 or there is that real kind of needing 225 00:09:34.325 --> 00:09:35.885 to see a better tomorrow, isn't there? 226 00:09:36.265 --> 00:09:38.885 And where am I gonna go and how am I gonna get forward? 227 00:09:38.905 --> 00:09:40.325 And how am I gonna move out of this? 228 00:09:40.385 --> 00:09:42.205 And it's a real ability and, 229 00:09:42.545 --> 00:09:44.005 and something maybe we should 230 00:09:44.005 --> 00:09:45.165 be thinking more about teaching. 231 00:09:45.505 --> 00:09:47.725 Um, I saw something on Facebook actually the other day. 232 00:09:47.725 --> 00:09:49.365 It was really interesting. It was one of these little memes, 233 00:09:49.785 --> 00:09:51.645 and it was somebody sat reading a book 234 00:09:51.745 --> 00:09:54.445 and it said, when you actually think about the concept 235 00:09:54.625 --> 00:09:56.245 of reading, it's crazy 236 00:09:56.245 --> 00:09:59.765 because it's just looking at a, a few slices of wood 237 00:09:59.765 --> 00:10:03.445 and crazy imaginally vividly sort of, um, 238 00:10:03.515 --> 00:10:04.765 hallucinating on things. 239 00:10:04.945 --> 00:10:06.205 And it is, that's kind of what we do. 240 00:10:06.305 --> 00:10:08.005 We look at some pieces of wood 241 00:10:08.005 --> 00:10:10.285 and visualize things in our head, don't we? 242 00:10:10.665 --> 00:10:12.165 Now, when you think Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 243 00:10:12.165 --> 00:10:13.245 That's kind of what story is. 244 00:10:13.275 --> 00:10:15.045 It's that being able to visualize stuff 245 00:10:15.105 --> 00:10:17.845 and think about things and see a future 246 00:10:18.025 --> 00:10:20.405 and see the next stage, and like, yeah. 247 00:10:20.425 --> 00:10:21.645 That's, that's really interesting. 248 00:10:21.685 --> 00:10:23.285 I lo I love the way you've been speaking about that, Helen. 249 00:10:23.675 --> 00:10:25.685 That makes a lot of sense. But, um, 250 00:10:26.385 --> 00:10:28.365 It transports us, it transports us. 251 00:10:28.705 --> 00:10:29.765 And in that transportation, 252 00:10:30.285 --> 00:10:31.645 I think is the change of perspective. 253 00:10:31.985 --> 00:10:34.365 Yes. You know, whether we revisit past events, whether we, 254 00:10:34.385 --> 00:10:36.565 we are lost in a, in the story of someone else, 255 00:10:36.715 --> 00:10:39.165 whether we are imagining the future, you know, that in 256 00:10:39.165 --> 00:10:42.565 that transportation is, is a change in us. 257 00:10:42.835 --> 00:10:45.565 It's, it, it really is so powerful and so simple. 258 00:10:46.545 --> 00:10:47.765 Yes. Yeah. So, 259 00:10:48.065 --> 00:10:49.925 and actually visualizing is a real skill 260 00:10:49.925 --> 00:10:52.325 that you can learn, isn't it? So, yeah. 261 00:10:52.425 --> 00:10:53.805 So as you see hope 262 00:10:53.905 --> 00:10:56.445 and agency, so the taking of action by an individual 263 00:10:56.625 --> 00:10:59.445 and story are, are intertwined as we live out our lives. 264 00:10:59.825 --> 00:11:00.965 And the definition 265 00:11:00.965 --> 00:11:03.605 of personal agency is a person having the sense 266 00:11:04.035 --> 00:11:06.405 that they are the one who is causing 267 00:11:06.665 --> 00:11:07.965 or generating an action. 268 00:11:08.145 --> 00:11:09.565 Mm-hmm. And story works 269 00:11:09.565 --> 00:11:11.045 to build this in the lives of children. 270 00:11:11.225 --> 00:11:13.605 So in an article written by, uh, Dr. 271 00:11:13.605 --> 00:11:16.365 Robin f in Psychology today, um, called 272 00:11:16.465 --> 00:11:18.085 how the stories we tell about ourselves 273 00:11:18.085 --> 00:11:20.885 and others shape who we are, she explains 274 00:11:21.105 --> 00:11:23.565 how when we hear the stories of everyday people, 275 00:11:23.585 --> 00:11:26.845 people we know and love engaging in small acts of heroism, 276 00:11:27.185 --> 00:11:29.125 we begin to understand that this is something 277 00:11:29.155 --> 00:11:30.205 that we can do too. 278 00:11:30.745 --> 00:11:33.325 It is these small stories that connect adolescents 279 00:11:33.325 --> 00:11:36.485 to not just their family history, but larger history 280 00:11:36.745 --> 00:11:39.245 and a history in which individuals make a difference 281 00:11:39.245 --> 00:11:42.325 and create change and research out 282 00:11:42.445 --> 00:11:45.245 of the family narratives lab at Emory University has 283 00:11:45.245 --> 00:11:46.325 highlighted the importance 284 00:11:46.325 --> 00:11:48.205 of these stories in building resilience. 285 00:11:48.425 --> 00:11:51.725 So that's the ability to deal with adversity and self-esteem 286 00:11:51.745 --> 00:11:54.605 and cultivating a sense of meaning and purpose in life. 287 00:11:54.785 --> 00:11:58.125 Mm-hmm. And we can continually build a sense of being able 288 00:11:58.125 --> 00:12:00.245 to cause an action in children by telling them 289 00:12:00.785 --> 00:12:03.925 age agentic stories, and by creating opportunities for them 290 00:12:03.945 --> 00:12:05.405 to overhear age agentic stories. 291 00:12:05.505 --> 00:12:07.005 So for example, you can tell them 292 00:12:07.005 --> 00:12:08.165 stories about their learning. 293 00:12:08.665 --> 00:12:10.045 So look at what you did. 294 00:12:10.145 --> 00:12:14.605 You went from A to B, you learned about X, you are now able 295 00:12:14.745 --> 00:12:17.645 to do X, you worked it out, you solved a problem. 296 00:12:18.035 --> 00:12:19.485 What do you think you can do next? 297 00:12:19.985 --> 00:12:24.125 So there's the sort of impartation, the, the input of the, 298 00:12:24.245 --> 00:12:26.405 a agentic part, you know, of their learning. 299 00:12:26.955 --> 00:12:28.885 Also, you can tell stories about their learning 300 00:12:28.885 --> 00:12:30.405 to others in a detailed way. 301 00:12:30.505 --> 00:12:32.805 So do you know when you know that they're in earshot, 302 00:12:32.805 --> 00:12:34.325 that they can, you know, that they can hear you? 303 00:12:34.345 --> 00:12:36.405 Do you know that so and so was able to do, 304 00:12:36.665 --> 00:12:37.685 you know, this and that? 305 00:12:38.265 --> 00:12:40.765 And when we tell stories about the children when they're in 306 00:12:40.765 --> 00:12:42.765 earshot, but not being spoken to directly, 307 00:12:43.265 --> 00:12:44.645 the reception is actually enhanced. 308 00:12:44.675 --> 00:12:47.525 There's no barrier such as shyness or deflection, 309 00:12:48.025 --> 00:12:50.125 and there's no discussion where they're required 310 00:12:50.185 --> 00:12:51.685 to consider their response to you. 311 00:12:51.865 --> 00:12:53.805 Mm-hmm. So it allows the, the words 312 00:12:53.805 --> 00:12:55.805 of the story we're telling to really sink in, 313 00:12:56.225 --> 00:12:57.605 and the child feels important 314 00:12:57.605 --> 00:12:59.645 because we've taken the time to speak highly 315 00:12:59.705 --> 00:13:00.885 of them to another person. 316 00:13:01.785 --> 00:13:04.565 And in this way we are modeling these stories of agency. 317 00:13:04.565 --> 00:13:08.045 And the potential is there for them, for them to begin 318 00:13:08.045 --> 00:13:10.365 to tell themselves agent stories, being able 319 00:13:10.365 --> 00:13:13.445 to reflect on the ways, um, in which they've planned 320 00:13:13.465 --> 00:13:15.405 and achieved and overcome obstacles. 321 00:13:16.065 --> 00:13:17.885 And you know, what's interesting about this is 322 00:13:17.885 --> 00:13:20.325 that you may think that having this type of agency 323 00:13:20.325 --> 00:13:22.525 and autonomy might lead to individualism 324 00:13:22.525 --> 00:13:24.445 and independence in an unhealthy way, 325 00:13:24.505 --> 00:13:26.205 but to a kind of selfishness. 326 00:13:26.265 --> 00:13:28.125 But this isn't born out by the research, 327 00:13:28.155 --> 00:13:29.645 it's actually the, the opposite. 328 00:13:30.065 --> 00:13:31.765 So having a sense of personal agency 329 00:13:31.765 --> 00:13:34.005 and autonomy doesn't lead to disconnection, 330 00:13:34.345 --> 00:13:37.045 but enhances a person's capacities for collaboration 331 00:13:37.045 --> 00:13:38.245 and positive relationships. 332 00:13:38.385 --> 00:13:41.125 Mm-hmm. And an important part of this is story agency. 333 00:13:41.465 --> 00:13:44.045 So controlling the narrative of your own life. 334 00:13:44.395 --> 00:13:46.925 What does life look like and feel like to you? 335 00:13:47.825 --> 00:13:50.285 Um, and, and here's a fascinating study that I'd like 336 00:13:50.285 --> 00:13:52.525 to share with you about how we tell the stories of our lives 337 00:13:52.625 --> 00:13:55.085 and, and what that can do in fact, to change our lives. 338 00:13:55.865 --> 00:13:57.645 In a study carried out by Adam Grant 339 00:13:57.985 --> 00:14:00.885 and Jane Dutton in 2012, they asked a group 340 00:14:00.885 --> 00:14:04.885 of university call center fundraisers to keep a journal 341 00:14:05.025 --> 00:14:08.085 for four consecutive days in one condition. 342 00:14:08.085 --> 00:14:09.085 They asked the fundraisers 343 00:14:09.085 --> 00:14:11.245 to write about the last time a colleague did something 344 00:14:11.245 --> 00:14:12.885 for them that inspired gratitude. 345 00:14:13.625 --> 00:14:15.685 And in the second condition, they asked participants 346 00:14:15.685 --> 00:14:17.885 to write about a time that they contributed 347 00:14:18.025 --> 00:14:19.125 to others at work. 348 00:14:19.585 --> 00:14:22.245 Yes. So, the aim of the study was to find out which type 349 00:14:22.245 --> 00:14:24.085 of story would lead the research 350 00:14:24.085 --> 00:14:25.325 subjects to be more generous. 351 00:14:25.595 --> 00:14:28.165 Yeah. Because of, because the fundraisers were paid a fixed 352 00:14:28.305 --> 00:14:29.805 hourly rate to call alumni 353 00:14:29.865 --> 00:14:32.045 and solicit donations, the researchers decided 354 00:14:32.395 --> 00:14:33.845 that the number of calls they made 355 00:14:33.845 --> 00:14:35.645 during their shift was a good indicator 356 00:14:35.645 --> 00:14:37.165 of pro-social helping behavior. 357 00:14:37.625 --> 00:14:40.845 And so they monitored the fundraisers call records, records 358 00:14:40.845 --> 00:14:42.605 after Grant and Dutton had analyzed the stories. 359 00:14:42.605 --> 00:14:43.845 They found that the fundraisers 360 00:14:43.845 --> 00:14:45.965 who told stories about being the beneficiary 361 00:14:45.965 --> 00:14:48.525 of generosity showed no changes in their behavior. 362 00:14:51.255 --> 00:14:54.115 But those who told the story of themselves as benefactors 363 00:14:54.715 --> 00:14:57.435 ultimately made 30% more calls to alumni 364 00:14:57.845 --> 00:14:59.755 after the experiment than they had before. 365 00:15:00.265 --> 00:15:01.715 Okay. So Grant 366 00:15:01.715 --> 00:15:03.795 and dozen studies suggest that the ability of a story 367 00:15:03.815 --> 00:15:06.635 to create meaning doesn't end with the crafting 368 00:15:06.735 --> 00:15:07.835 and the telling of the tale. 369 00:15:08.225 --> 00:15:11.115 Yeah. The story of the fundraisers told about themselves 370 00:15:11.595 --> 00:15:13.475 contributing to and helping others led 371 00:15:13.475 --> 00:15:14.755 to meaningful behaviors. 372 00:15:15.135 --> 00:15:17.195 So them giving of themselves in terms of time 373 00:15:17.195 --> 00:15:19.955 and effort, even though this is so fascinating, 374 00:15:19.955 --> 00:15:22.035 even though the fundraisers knew they were only telling the 375 00:15:22.035 --> 00:15:23.235 stories as part of a study, 376 00:15:23.825 --> 00:15:27.275 they ultimately lived by those stories. Yes. 377 00:15:27.665 --> 00:15:29.795 Yeah. That's really interesting, isn't it? Yeah. 378 00:15:30.225 --> 00:15:31.835 It's really interesting that sort 379 00:15:31.835 --> 00:15:33.515 of telling stories about others didn't have 380 00:15:33.515 --> 00:15:34.635 any impact at all, isn't it? 381 00:15:35.095 --> 00:15:38.115 It is kind of that, that whole something that I can do, it's 382 00:15:38.115 --> 00:15:40.235 that going back to that personal agency and that 383 00:15:40.555 --> 00:15:41.555 Personal agency. Right. 384 00:15:41.555 --> 00:15:44.315 And, and it's by reframing that narrative, 385 00:15:44.415 --> 00:15:47.955 by reframing their own narrative, they adopted a, 386 00:15:48.155 --> 00:15:51.715 a positive identity that led them to live more purposefully, 387 00:15:51.865 --> 00:15:53.915 that that led to a greater degree of purpose. 388 00:15:54.055 --> 00:15:56.755 So the, this study is from an article written 389 00:15:56.775 --> 00:15:58.315 by Emily Esfahani Smith, 390 00:15:58.405 --> 00:16:00.755 who's actually written a wonderful book called, um, 391 00:16:00.935 --> 00:16:02.235 on Meaning called The Power of Meaning. 392 00:16:02.255 --> 00:16:04.155 And she also has a, a TED talk, which is great. 393 00:16:05.135 --> 00:16:08.275 Um, and in this article that she's written, she goes on 394 00:16:08.275 --> 00:16:10.595 to explain even making that, 395 00:16:10.595 --> 00:16:13.715 even making smaller story edits can have a 396 00:16:13.715 --> 00:16:14.835 big impact on our lives. 397 00:16:15.015 --> 00:16:17.435 So one of the great con contributions of psychology 398 00:16:17.455 --> 00:16:19.835 and psychotherapy research is the idea 399 00:16:19.835 --> 00:16:21.235 that we can edit mm-hmm. 400 00:16:21.655 --> 00:16:24.755 Revise and interpret the stories we tell about our lives, 401 00:16:24.985 --> 00:16:26.715 even as we are constrained by the facts. 402 00:16:26.945 --> 00:16:30.035 Yeah. So a psychotherapist's job is to work with patients 403 00:16:30.035 --> 00:16:32.155 to rewrite their stories in a more positive way. 404 00:16:32.465 --> 00:16:33.555 Yeah. Through editing 405 00:16:33.555 --> 00:16:35.635 and reinterpreting his story with his therapist, 406 00:16:35.735 --> 00:16:38.595 the patient may come to realize that he is in control 407 00:16:38.595 --> 00:16:39.995 of his life, there's the agency, 408 00:16:40.375 --> 00:16:43.395 and that some meaning can be gleaned from his hardships. 409 00:16:43.625 --> 00:16:45.915 Yeah. A review of the scientific literature finds 410 00:16:45.915 --> 00:16:50.795 that this form of therapy is as effective as antidepressants 411 00:16:50.895 --> 00:16:53.675 or cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah. 412 00:16:53.975 --> 00:16:55.395 That's, that's big, isn't it? 413 00:16:55.615 --> 00:16:56.995 And do you know what, the interesting thing for us 414 00:16:56.995 --> 00:16:58.955 as well is that this is huge 415 00:16:59.255 --> 00:17:02.715 and comes into play in terms of working with children, um, 416 00:17:02.865 --> 00:17:06.235 because a lot of the children that the people 417 00:17:06.255 --> 00:17:08.595 who are listening to this will have stories 418 00:17:08.595 --> 00:17:09.915 that are being inputted at home. 419 00:17:10.145 --> 00:17:12.075 They'll have things that, uh, they're hearing. 420 00:17:12.415 --> 00:17:13.835 And so as a teacher 421 00:17:13.935 --> 00:17:16.995 or practitioner that works with children, often a big part 422 00:17:16.995 --> 00:17:19.315 of what you do is rewriting their story for them, isn't it? 423 00:17:19.615 --> 00:17:21.235 And rewriting their story with them 424 00:17:21.235 --> 00:17:24.115 and getting them to see themselves in a more hopeful way. 425 00:17:24.385 --> 00:17:26.715 Yeah. So yeah, it does, it makes a lot 426 00:17:26.715 --> 00:17:27.915 of sense, doesn't it? So, 427 00:17:27.985 --> 00:17:29.595 Because you know, they're absorbing, 428 00:17:29.595 --> 00:17:32.235 they're absorbing the language, the tone. 429 00:17:32.585 --> 00:17:35.115 Yeah. The, the gestures, the, you know, they are, 430 00:17:35.115 --> 00:17:37.555 they are literally, and, and then oftentimes they are, 431 00:17:37.975 --> 00:17:40.115 you know, repeating that and, and modeling that. 432 00:17:40.175 --> 00:17:43.035 And, and it just becomes sort of entrenched in terms 433 00:17:43.035 --> 00:17:45.235 of their, their thinking, their feeling and their behavior. 434 00:17:45.895 --> 00:17:47.075 And so, absolutely. 435 00:17:47.095 --> 00:17:49.205 You know, oftentimes as as teachers 436 00:17:49.205 --> 00:17:52.285 and practitioners, you are, you, you, you, you are required, 437 00:17:52.705 --> 00:17:53.845 you know, it's necessary to work 438 00:17:53.845 --> 00:17:55.165 to counteract that, I think. 439 00:17:55.435 --> 00:17:56.605 Yeah. Um, and 440 00:17:57.485 --> 00:17:59.205 Interest in what, even the tiny things, 441 00:17:59.235 --> 00:18:02.725 like I know I've got like ivy now, just even the tiny things 442 00:18:02.725 --> 00:18:04.525 that she will pick up on, like something 443 00:18:04.525 --> 00:18:06.405 that's said in passing, and then three 444 00:18:06.405 --> 00:18:08.525 or four days later, she'll bring it up and say it again. 445 00:18:08.525 --> 00:18:10.325 And I'm like, I don't even remember saying that. 446 00:18:10.865 --> 00:18:12.645 Um, I think the, the, 447 00:18:12.705 --> 00:18:14.685 the small things like these tiny little chips 448 00:18:14.685 --> 00:18:16.525 that happen all the time that they're hearing, like, 449 00:18:16.525 --> 00:18:17.525 that's what's right in the 450 00:18:17.525 --> 00:18:18.605 story for these children, isn't it? 451 00:18:18.605 --> 00:18:20.685 And and it's like you said, it's the gestures, 452 00:18:20.705 --> 00:18:22.525 the way you speak to them, the way you listen to them, 453 00:18:22.585 --> 00:18:25.045 the way you give them time, it's all of those things 454 00:18:25.075 --> 00:18:26.125 that help them 455 00:18:26.905 --> 00:18:28.685 to have a different story about themselves 456 00:18:28.745 --> 00:18:30.965 and their value. So, so yeah. 457 00:18:31.615 --> 00:18:33.605 Sorry Kate. We have grace and courtesy 458 00:18:33.605 --> 00:18:37.365 and I think that lovely modeling of, of, of grace and, and, 459 00:18:37.505 --> 00:18:38.645 and the courtesy to others 460 00:18:38.705 --> 00:18:41.085 and the way that you, you know, re react 461 00:18:41.085 --> 00:18:44.845 and, you know, children are watching the, the, the, this 462 00:18:45.595 --> 00:18:47.325 sort of fleeting glance on your face 463 00:18:47.385 --> 00:18:48.525 as you interact with people. 464 00:18:48.955 --> 00:18:50.365 They are, you know, and they, they, 465 00:18:50.365 --> 00:18:53.365 and so I think, you know, we are always modeling, um, 466 00:18:54.545 --> 00:18:58.645 you know, morality, uh, piece, you know, the, 467 00:18:58.645 --> 00:19:01.085 these essential qualities, really the virtues for them. 468 00:19:01.625 --> 00:19:04.125 Um, and yeah. And, and they're, they're taking it in. 469 00:19:04.125 --> 00:19:06.325 And, and I think, you know, just from the study, you know, 470 00:19:06.355 --> 00:19:08.485 it's, it's so huge when you think about the, 471 00:19:08.595 --> 00:19:11.165 when you consider the, the rise in mental health issues in 472 00:19:11.165 --> 00:19:14.885 the present day amongst children, teens, adults, um, as well 473 00:19:14.885 --> 00:19:16.765 as the prescription and use of antidepressants. 474 00:19:17.165 --> 00:19:20.325 I know so many people in my own, you know, world who, who, 475 00:19:20.385 --> 00:19:23.805 who take antidepressants, um, and telling different stories 476 00:19:24.185 --> 00:19:27.205 or telling stories differently can help us 477 00:19:27.265 --> 00:19:28.405 and, and can heal us. 478 00:19:28.755 --> 00:19:30.325 Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's massive. 479 00:19:30.465 --> 00:19:31.925 And I think mental health is just 480 00:19:31.925 --> 00:19:33.445 massively on the increase, isn't it? 481 00:19:33.825 --> 00:19:35.565 And yeah. And anxiety 482 00:19:35.905 --> 00:19:37.525 and all sorts of issues for a lot of people. 483 00:19:37.625 --> 00:19:41.285 And I think, and I think also as an adult working 484 00:19:41.285 --> 00:19:44.885 with children, it's that modeling hope that, that having 485 00:19:44.885 --> 00:19:47.925 that story for yourself, um, not only kind of 486 00:19:48.145 --> 00:19:52.165 for their story, but in terms of me being able to do 487 00:19:52.165 --> 00:19:53.885 that in front of children that I work with 488 00:19:53.905 --> 00:19:56.285 or my own child, being able to say, oh, you know, I can, 489 00:19:56.565 --> 00:19:57.765 I can change my own story. 490 00:19:58.045 --> 00:20:00.845 I can, I can, you know, be hopeful about my next step 491 00:20:00.845 --> 00:20:02.165 or the next thing we're gonna do together. 492 00:20:02.265 --> 00:20:04.005 Or like, modeling that for children, 493 00:20:04.125 --> 00:20:05.205 I think is really big, isn't it? 494 00:20:06.165 --> 00:20:07.405 Absolutely. Absolutely. 495 00:20:07.405 --> 00:20:09.445 To create, you know, if you're having a bad morning, 496 00:20:09.585 --> 00:20:11.605 to create an alternative ending Yes. 497 00:20:11.705 --> 00:20:13.165 To, to change the script, right. 498 00:20:13.165 --> 00:20:17.085 To rewrite, to reset, to, to, if you've had, you know, 499 00:20:17.205 --> 00:20:19.805 if something's happened and an unfortunate event or, 500 00:20:19.805 --> 00:20:20.925 or there's a difficult circumstance 501 00:20:20.925 --> 00:20:22.885 that you extract the meaning from the suffering. 502 00:20:22.945 --> 00:20:24.125 How do you tell that story? 503 00:20:24.625 --> 00:20:25.885 You know, do you tell it as, 504 00:20:25.985 --> 00:20:27.645 as something that is destructive? 505 00:20:27.645 --> 00:20:29.725 Do you tell it as something that is, that is, 506 00:20:29.825 --> 00:20:32.805 is meaningful in, in its in, in its learning, you know, 507 00:20:32.865 --> 00:20:35.045 so they Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 508 00:20:35.625 --> 00:20:37.245 You said that stories are important 509 00:20:37.265 --> 00:20:38.365 in our lives in many ways. 510 00:20:38.625 --> 00:20:39.845 Can you expand on this for us? 511 00:20:41.265 --> 00:20:43.725 So if we think about stories in general, the ones 512 00:20:43.725 --> 00:20:45.685 that we listen to, uh, read 513 00:20:45.685 --> 00:20:47.485 and watch, they're, they're important 514 00:20:47.485 --> 00:20:50.125 because they have the power to change us by providing us 515 00:20:50.125 --> 00:20:52.925 with the space to explore moral dilemmas, 516 00:20:52.985 --> 00:20:55.725 to question choices, to understand consequences, 517 00:20:56.025 --> 00:20:58.685 and to grapple with, with difficult issues and reflect. 518 00:20:59.225 --> 00:21:01.445 And, you know, we won't have every experience in life, 519 00:21:01.505 --> 00:21:04.125 but through the stories of others, we can be exposed 520 00:21:04.125 --> 00:21:05.845 to many more experiences. 521 00:21:05.865 --> 00:21:08.605 And the result in thinking and feeling that comes with that. 522 00:21:09.265 --> 00:21:12.165 And as we tell our own stories, we give ourselves the space 523 00:21:12.465 --> 00:21:14.805 to figure things out and, and to grow. 524 00:21:15.365 --> 00:21:17.525 I was reflecting on story just this last week again, 525 00:21:17.525 --> 00:21:18.845 in terms of these times, 526 00:21:18.915 --> 00:21:20.485 because there was an evening 527 00:21:20.485 --> 00:21:21.765 where I was immersed in the news 528 00:21:21.785 --> 00:21:22.845 and the narratives of, 529 00:21:22.945 --> 00:21:25.125 of the people caught up in these incredibly painful 530 00:21:25.785 --> 00:21:26.925 and dire circumstances. 531 00:21:27.025 --> 00:21:30.445 And I decided that I needed to have some respite from it. 532 00:21:30.545 --> 00:21:33.245 Mm-hmm. And I'm fortunate that I have the luxury to, to make 533 00:21:33.245 --> 00:21:34.725 that decision, to choose to do that. 534 00:21:34.745 --> 00:21:36.285 And I, I decided to watch a film 535 00:21:36.345 --> 00:21:38.885 and it was a light-hearted film on Netflix about a lady 536 00:21:38.885 --> 00:21:40.765 who decides to create a new life for herself, 537 00:21:40.765 --> 00:21:42.685 as we were just saying, and, and idyllic place. 538 00:21:42.995 --> 00:21:46.045 Yeah. And, you know, in, in that film, I found such beauty 539 00:21:46.385 --> 00:21:48.325 and such joy and such shelter. 540 00:21:48.795 --> 00:21:52.525 Yeah. And so story can, can challenge us and, and change us 541 00:21:52.545 --> 00:21:56.165 and help us and heal us, but it can also provide solace 542 00:21:56.385 --> 00:21:59.845 and respite and, and lead to a sense of, of renewal. 543 00:22:00.315 --> 00:22:03.005 Yeah. Yeah. That's it. No, that's true. Yeah. 544 00:22:03.025 --> 00:22:04.925 And often I know when I've had a bad day, 545 00:22:05.005 --> 00:22:06.445 a good romcom can always help. 546 00:22:06.675 --> 00:22:10.525 Like it's finding something very easy to watch at the end 547 00:22:10.525 --> 00:22:12.005 of a hard day, isn't it? Yeah. 548 00:22:12.275 --> 00:22:14.485 Yeah. Well, you don't have to, you don't really have 549 00:22:14.485 --> 00:22:17.485 to think or, you know, you can just, you know, there, 550 00:22:17.485 --> 00:22:20.325 there's space for, for comfort and for joy 551 00:22:20.785 --> 00:22:22.605 and stories can, can do that too. 552 00:22:22.625 --> 00:22:24.405 And you know, what's interesting is I often find, 553 00:22:24.405 --> 00:22:25.485 and you'll find this with children, 554 00:22:25.755 --> 00:22:27.205 they ask for the same story. 555 00:22:27.555 --> 00:22:28.765 Yeah, they do. And again, 556 00:22:28.765 --> 00:22:31.205 and sometimes we, we do the same as adults, you know, we, 557 00:22:31.225 --> 00:22:33.765 we watch a, a romcom that we might have seen many times 558 00:22:33.765 --> 00:22:37.365 before, but I think it's the familiarity and, 559 00:22:37.745 --> 00:22:40.365 and the knowledge that we, some, we know the plot, 560 00:22:40.455 --> 00:22:42.605 there are no surprises, there's no anxiety, 561 00:22:43.075 --> 00:22:44.685 there's just, there's just comfort. 562 00:22:44.865 --> 00:22:46.725 And, and I think there's a time for that too. 563 00:22:47.235 --> 00:22:49.045 Yeah. It's true. I think I've watched Dirty Dancing 564 00:22:49.045 --> 00:22:50.165 about 35 times. 565 00:22:53.825 --> 00:22:55.845 It always gets me that bit when he comes in 566 00:22:55.845 --> 00:22:58.045 and he is like, nobody puts baby in the corner, 567 00:22:58.305 --> 00:23:00.805 but you kind of know it's coming and there's no surprises. 568 00:23:00.865 --> 00:23:03.765 But yeah, it's just as good. I 569 00:23:03.765 --> 00:23:04.805 Have two that I love. 570 00:23:05.005 --> 00:23:07.525 I have one the proposal I absolutely love 571 00:23:07.525 --> 00:23:09.805 with Sandra Bullock, and I love Dan in real 572 00:23:09.805 --> 00:23:11.125 life with Steve Carrell. 573 00:23:11.705 --> 00:23:14.125 Oh my goodness. Two of my absolute favorites. 574 00:23:14.225 --> 00:23:17.245 I'm gonna to watch them over Christmas, so Yeah. Yeah. 575 00:23:17.475 --> 00:23:19.245 It's comfort and it's an escape. Yeah. 576 00:23:19.265 --> 00:23:21.925 And it's very necessary at times. It really is. 577 00:23:22.445 --> 00:23:24.805 I think so. Yeah. Um, we chatted a little bit, 578 00:23:24.825 --> 00:23:26.205 I'm going off on a tangent a little bit, 579 00:23:26.225 --> 00:23:28.405 but we were chatting the other day about kind of all 580 00:23:28.405 --> 00:23:29.885 of this stuff that is happening on the news 581 00:23:30.025 --> 00:23:31.485 and being able to switch that off 582 00:23:31.625 --> 00:23:35.685 and just this whole sense of personal agency, 583 00:23:35.685 --> 00:23:38.045 because often when it does come to the news, 584 00:23:38.125 --> 00:23:40.205 I know we've chatted about this before, there is 585 00:23:40.205 --> 00:23:43.285 that struggle of, you watch all this negative stuff 586 00:23:43.285 --> 00:23:45.285 and this awful things that are happening, 587 00:23:45.305 --> 00:23:47.125 and they feel like there's nothing you can do. 588 00:23:47.785 --> 00:23:50.405 And it's that feeling of not having that power 589 00:23:50.705 --> 00:23:51.845 to do anything about it. 590 00:23:52.085 --> 00:23:54.205 I dunno if you kind of just wanna touch on that briefly on 591 00:23:54.205 --> 00:23:56.565 what your thoughts are, or like, of 592 00:23:56.565 --> 00:23:57.565 Course. Yeah, 593 00:23:57.565 --> 00:23:58.005 absolutely. 594 00:23:58.005 --> 00:24:00.165 Because we did, we did, we had a very interesting discussion 595 00:24:00.165 --> 00:24:04.765 around this patted about, um, um, Mr. 596 00:24:04.905 --> 00:24:07.205 The quote from Mr. Rogers, I think I mentioned to you. 597 00:24:07.385 --> 00:24:08.765 And I actually went away 598 00:24:08.765 --> 00:24:11.245 and did some research on that quote, that lovely quote. 599 00:24:11.305 --> 00:24:13.125 And it, and it says it's often, 600 00:24:13.315 --> 00:24:17.365 it's often put on Instagram in response to, to thi 601 00:24:17.385 --> 00:24:18.765 to tragedies that that happen. 602 00:24:19.385 --> 00:24:20.925 Um, and, and really difficult events. 603 00:24:21.145 --> 00:24:24.965 And, um, the quote go, the quote says, when I was a boy 604 00:24:25.105 --> 00:24:26.845 and I would see scary things in the news, 605 00:24:26.945 --> 00:24:29.085 my mother would say to me, look for the helpers. 606 00:24:29.545 --> 00:24:31.405 You will always find people who are helping. 607 00:24:32.265 --> 00:24:34.885 And you know, this quote has become huge on, 608 00:24:34.885 --> 00:24:35.885 on social media, as I said, 609 00:24:35.885 --> 00:24:37.845 and it's often bandaid about when, when there's a disaster. 610 00:24:37.845 --> 00:24:40.325 But I read a few articles around it, 611 00:24:40.865 --> 00:24:42.205 and they were very interesting 612 00:24:42.205 --> 00:24:44.845 because they basically said that this quote is intended 613 00:24:44.905 --> 00:24:46.405 for young children Yeah. 614 00:24:46.545 --> 00:24:49.685 To provide con, to provide comfort and not for adults, 615 00:24:49.685 --> 00:24:52.605 because as adults, we shouldn't simply be looking at the 616 00:24:52.605 --> 00:24:53.645 other people who are helping, 617 00:24:54.145 --> 00:24:57.165 but we should be finding ways in which we can help too. 618 00:24:57.385 --> 00:24:59.325 And there's the personal agency, right. 619 00:24:59.465 --> 00:25:02.005 And so what I would say, you know, with, with these 620 00:25:02.525 --> 00:25:05.485 horrendous events, um, is that for the children, 621 00:25:05.965 --> 00:25:08.285 absolutely look for the helpers and the heroes and, 622 00:25:08.345 --> 00:25:10.285 and focus on the stories of comfort and hope. 623 00:25:10.305 --> 00:25:12.965 And for us as adults, I think we need a combination. 624 00:25:13.025 --> 00:25:15.445 So yes, consider the helpers and the heroes. 625 00:25:15.635 --> 00:25:18.325 I've found, you know, the heroic stories that I've, 626 00:25:18.325 --> 00:25:22.045 I've been hearing, um, so helpful these last weeks that the, 627 00:25:22.045 --> 00:25:25.405 the stories of real courage in, in, in terms in, you know, 628 00:25:25.405 --> 00:25:26.645 in this current situation. 629 00:25:27.145 --> 00:25:29.845 And, you know, we can allow these stories to be a comfort. 630 00:25:30.065 --> 00:25:33.445 Mm-hmm. But the tales of others must also galvanize us. 631 00:25:33.865 --> 00:25:36.205 So there must cause us to take action 632 00:25:36.425 --> 00:25:37.565 of our own in some way. 633 00:25:37.625 --> 00:25:41.165 So do we advocate, do we educate, do we donate? 634 00:25:41.635 --> 00:25:43.845 What can we do, um, in response 635 00:25:43.845 --> 00:25:45.605 to monumental, frightening events? 636 00:25:45.905 --> 00:25:48.845 And I think when, you know, when we act age genetically, 637 00:25:48.905 --> 00:25:50.005 we model this for children. 638 00:25:50.385 --> 00:25:51.525 So yes, they're being calmed 639 00:25:51.525 --> 00:25:53.445 and comforted by us pointing out the helpers. 640 00:25:53.465 --> 00:25:56.885 But li listen to this research has shown that 641 00:25:56.885 --> 00:26:00.085 because of the brain's mirror networks, the marvelous trick 642 00:26:00.085 --> 00:26:02.685 of the mind that allows us to feel as though we are doing 643 00:26:02.915 --> 00:26:04.325 what we see others doing. 644 00:26:05.345 --> 00:26:08.805 So through that our kids can experience the arc of giving. 645 00:26:09.385 --> 00:26:13.325 Yes. The initial flush of generosity, the execution of act, 646 00:26:13.585 --> 00:26:14.645 and the help is high. 647 00:26:14.835 --> 00:26:17.685 They can actually experience that through us. Right? 648 00:26:17.685 --> 00:26:20.525 So this causes them to feel the feelings of being a helper 649 00:26:20.865 --> 00:26:23.725 and our actions can cause them to become people who act. 650 00:26:23.955 --> 00:26:26.445 Yeah. So again, you know, not lectures 651 00:26:26.445 --> 00:26:28.205 and lengthy explanations or moralizing 652 00:26:28.205 --> 00:26:31.885 or teaching that's not needed, but us sort of modeling 653 00:26:32.185 --> 00:26:35.965 and living out a story where we actally, that's 654 00:26:35.965 --> 00:26:37.005 what actually changes them. 655 00:26:37.625 --> 00:26:39.005 You've said that you believe 656 00:26:39.005 --> 00:26:40.405 storytelling can be life changing. 657 00:26:41.185 --> 00:26:42.765 Um, can you chat a bit more about this? 658 00:26:42.995 --> 00:26:45.165 Like I'm, I totally, I totally agree with you. 659 00:26:45.325 --> 00:26:46.885 I think it, it definitely is life changing, 660 00:26:46.905 --> 00:26:48.565 but I'd love to hear your kind of view on this. 661 00:26:50.095 --> 00:26:52.795 So, so there are three fundamental parts of storytelling 662 00:26:52.795 --> 00:26:54.035 that I believe are life changing. 663 00:26:54.535 --> 00:26:56.035 Um, the first is the way 664 00:26:56.035 --> 00:26:57.275 that we've covered briefly in which 665 00:26:57.275 --> 00:26:58.395 we tell the stories of our lives. 666 00:26:59.055 --> 00:27:02.395 The second is the language we use in our everyday lives. 667 00:27:02.735 --> 00:27:05.275 And the third is the process of emotion differentiation. 668 00:27:06.255 --> 00:27:09.395 So if we first consider the way we tell stories about our 669 00:27:09.395 --> 00:27:10.715 lives, which I'll expand on for you. 670 00:27:10.935 --> 00:27:13.035 So as in the study carried out by Adam Grant 671 00:27:13.035 --> 00:27:15.315 that I mentioned previously, the individual stories 672 00:27:15.315 --> 00:27:17.475 that we tell can change the way that we behave, 673 00:27:18.335 --> 00:27:20.755 but the way in which we tell them over time 674 00:27:21.735 --> 00:27:23.995 can also change the way that we ultimately live. 675 00:27:24.385 --> 00:27:26.675 Yeah. So there's this fascinating piece of research 676 00:27:26.675 --> 00:27:28.915 that was done by a man called Dan McAdams, who 677 00:27:29.165 --> 00:27:31.875 after working with life stories and me for 30 years 678 00:27:32.295 --> 00:27:34.075 and analyzing hundreds of such stories, 679 00:27:34.405 --> 00:27:35.795 found interesting patterns in 680 00:27:35.815 --> 00:27:38.555 how people living meaningful lives understand 681 00:27:38.555 --> 00:27:39.955 and interpret their experiences. 682 00:27:40.695 --> 00:27:43.875 So he found that people motivated to contribute to society 683 00:27:43.975 --> 00:27:45.155 and to future generations. 684 00:27:45.435 --> 00:27:48.155 A concept called generativity were more likely 685 00:27:48.215 --> 00:27:50.235 to tell redemptive stories about their lives. 686 00:27:50.505 --> 00:27:52.715 That is stories that move from bad to good, 687 00:27:52.775 --> 00:27:54.995 and stories that extract meaning from suffering. 688 00:27:55.135 --> 00:27:57.715 Mm-hmm. And in contrast, others told 689 00:27:57.795 --> 00:28:00.675 what Mac McAdams described as contamination stories. 690 00:28:01.295 --> 00:28:03.675 So where people interpreted their lives in terms 691 00:28:03.675 --> 00:28:06.235 of bad events, overshadowing the good. 692 00:28:06.545 --> 00:28:08.275 Yeah. And in his findings, the people 693 00:28:08.275 --> 00:28:10.955 who told contamination stories were more likely to feel 694 00:28:10.955 --> 00:28:13.915 that their lives were less coherent, so less whole 695 00:28:14.545 --> 00:28:16.715 than those who focused on redemption stories. 696 00:28:17.295 --> 00:28:18.995 And, you know, if we think about it, 697 00:28:18.995 --> 00:28:20.915 redemption literally means to save. 698 00:28:21.175 --> 00:28:23.195 Mm-hmm. And I love that 699 00:28:23.195 --> 00:28:25.315 because by extracting meaning from suffering, 700 00:28:25.415 --> 00:28:27.355 and by looking for the good in which in 701 00:28:27.355 --> 00:28:29.755 what can sometimes be difficult to even tragic circumstance 702 00:28:29.755 --> 00:28:31.955 or events, we are able to save ourselves 703 00:28:32.015 --> 00:28:34.875 and possibly save those around us due 704 00:28:34.875 --> 00:28:35.875 to our interconnection, 705 00:28:36.465 --> 00:28:40.995 because, you know, no story is ever told in isolation. 706 00:28:41.535 --> 00:28:44.315 So our stories are linked, interlinked with those of others, 707 00:28:44.455 --> 00:28:47.355 and we really become ourselves through our shared stories 708 00:28:47.355 --> 00:28:50.315 with other people, uh, which is what makes life so beautiful 709 00:28:50.415 --> 00:28:52.155 and, and so full of suffering. It 710 00:28:52.155 --> 00:28:53.675 Can turn your day around massively 711 00:28:53.675 --> 00:28:54.875 to be with children, can't it? 712 00:28:55.145 --> 00:28:58.555 Yeah. So we're very lucky in, in a lot of ways to have 713 00:28:58.555 --> 00:29:01.195 that in our lives as practitioners that work with children. 714 00:29:01.855 --> 00:29:02.955 So Absolutely. 715 00:29:03.095 --> 00:29:04.755 And particularly young children, you're right, 716 00:29:04.755 --> 00:29:06.435 because you're not working to counteract 717 00:29:06.435 --> 00:29:09.355 and to sort of get through, you know, sort of a whole lot 718 00:29:09.355 --> 00:29:12.035 of stuff before you actually access the learning. 719 00:29:12.035 --> 00:29:13.195 You're right. And the creativity 720 00:29:13.215 --> 00:29:14.395 and the joy and the thinking. 721 00:29:14.465 --> 00:29:18.155 Yeah. It's sort of right there, isn't it? It's, uh, yeah. 722 00:29:18.665 --> 00:29:21.235 Yeah. We're, we're very lucky to have that. So, yeah. 723 00:29:21.235 --> 00:29:23.515 Yeah. So all you listening, like, 724 00:29:23.995 --> 00:29:25.355 I know there's a hor whole lot 725 00:29:25.355 --> 00:29:28.035 of horrible stuff like planning and paperwork and meetings 726 00:29:28.035 --> 00:29:30.595 and long hours, but yeah, we get to be with the kids, so 727 00:29:31.515 --> 00:29:32.755 Absolutely, absolutely. 728 00:29:32.775 --> 00:29:35.955 No, the, the, the tremendous joy there just is, it's, uh, 729 00:29:36.265 --> 00:29:37.275 it's, it's so joyful. 730 00:29:37.455 --> 00:29:39.515 So if we consider this in terms of young children 731 00:29:39.655 --> 00:29:41.805 and the way that they interview, story and play, 732 00:29:41.805 --> 00:29:44.765 and the skills that are being developed, we see that story 733 00:29:44.865 --> 00:29:47.325 and dramatic play allows for the use of symbol 734 00:29:47.385 --> 00:29:48.445 and the use of metaphor. 735 00:29:48.825 --> 00:29:51.045 So it gives the children room to stand back behind 736 00:29:51.045 --> 00:29:53.965 what they're doing and work things out without us peeling 737 00:29:53.965 --> 00:29:56.045 back the layers and asking them to declare themselves. 738 00:29:56.465 --> 00:29:58.085 So here they have room to explore. 739 00:29:58.945 --> 00:30:01.645 It allows them to express themselves developing emotional 740 00:30:01.645 --> 00:30:03.765 differentiation, which I'll expand on. 741 00:30:03.785 --> 00:30:05.645 And that aids in emotion regulation. 742 00:30:06.145 --> 00:30:07.885 It allows them to communicate with each other 743 00:30:07.885 --> 00:30:09.965 through negotiation and compromise. 744 00:30:10.225 --> 00:30:12.285 It fosters the skills needed in relationships. 745 00:30:12.905 --> 00:30:16.325 Um, it allows for cognition, for logic, for hypothesis. 746 00:30:16.385 --> 00:30:19.085 If we do this, how will this feel for us? 747 00:30:19.505 --> 00:30:22.005 For others, it allows for perspective. 748 00:30:22.105 --> 00:30:23.845 So the understanding that there are many ways 749 00:30:23.845 --> 00:30:27.565 of looking at something of doing, of being, um, 750 00:30:27.745 --> 00:30:30.325 it can provide children with a 360 degree view. 751 00:30:30.385 --> 00:30:31.605 So what does the story look like 752 00:30:31.625 --> 00:30:34.085 or feel like for the protagonist, for the antagonist, 753 00:30:34.385 --> 00:30:37.605 for the minor characters, you know, what did, do they see 754 00:30:37.605 --> 00:30:39.245 that the main characters may have missed? 755 00:30:39.635 --> 00:30:41.245 What does this look like from over there? 756 00:30:41.555 --> 00:30:45.285 This is, um, this is perspective and stories 757 00:30:45.385 --> 00:30:47.325 and exploration, morals and ethics. 758 00:30:47.355 --> 00:30:49.325 What is right again, what feels right 759 00:30:49.325 --> 00:30:50.725 for me is this right for the others? 760 00:30:51.465 --> 00:30:53.205 And it causes an examination 761 00:30:53.205 --> 00:30:54.645 of the individual and the collective. 762 00:30:54.645 --> 00:30:56.125 So this might be good for me, 763 00:30:56.705 --> 00:30:58.925 but you know, when they're playing out in a story, oh, 764 00:30:58.925 --> 00:31:00.205 but this isn't good for everyone 765 00:31:00.625 --> 00:31:02.205 and this is actually good for everyone else, 766 00:31:02.345 --> 00:31:03.605 but this isn't good for me. 767 00:31:04.265 --> 00:31:06.325 So you see with them, you know, what part 768 00:31:06.325 --> 00:31:07.845 of the self must be subjugated 769 00:31:08.265 --> 00:31:10.325 and what part of the self must be celebrated. 770 00:31:10.385 --> 00:31:11.605 And this is the work of life. 771 00:31:11.705 --> 00:31:14.725 The, the boundary setting, the absolutes, the deal breakers, 772 00:31:14.785 --> 00:31:16.805 the areas where we can compromise, you know, how 773 00:31:16.905 --> 00:31:18.205 how do we get along with others? 774 00:31:18.985 --> 00:31:21.845 And it allows for critical thinking and creative thinking. 775 00:31:21.945 --> 00:31:25.485 So we can ponder what could have happened if 776 00:31:26.105 --> 00:31:28.125 and with children, you can think about alternative 777 00:31:28.125 --> 00:31:29.325 endings and create them. 778 00:31:29.325 --> 00:31:31.765 What would you have liked to have happened? Yes. 779 00:31:31.985 --> 00:31:33.645 Um, and you know, to this point 780 00:31:33.665 --> 00:31:35.845 and to the community part of story, I'd like 781 00:31:35.845 --> 00:31:37.845 to add something that I believe is so essential 782 00:31:37.845 --> 00:31:39.125 for us to teach to young children. 783 00:31:39.305 --> 00:31:42.325 So I'll share a personal story here just to highlight this. 784 00:31:42.345 --> 00:31:44.405 And, and this is something that really struck me. 785 00:31:44.825 --> 00:31:46.565 So, um, as I was preparing this, 786 00:31:46.565 --> 00:31:48.965 so a few years ago we were having a dinner party in our home 787 00:31:48.985 --> 00:31:50.805 one evening with, um, with some people 788 00:31:50.925 --> 00:31:52.845 who at the time we considered to to be friends. 789 00:31:52.905 --> 00:31:54.245 And my husband is someone 790 00:31:54.265 --> 00:31:56.165 who doesn't share information about himself 791 00:31:56.225 --> 00:31:58.005 or his life very openly at all. 792 00:31:58.625 --> 00:32:02.285 Um, but that night he was sharing a couple of stories, um, 793 00:32:02.695 --> 00:32:04.325 about his work and about traveling. 794 00:32:04.505 --> 00:32:06.245 And as he was doing this, I caught one 795 00:32:06.245 --> 00:32:09.805 of them glancing at another one, um, in, 796 00:32:09.885 --> 00:32:11.045 in quite a telling way. 797 00:32:11.185 --> 00:32:12.485 It wasn't a positive thing. 798 00:32:13.225 --> 00:32:16.725 And I had this moment of realization that his stories 799 00:32:17.635 --> 00:32:19.805 weren't safe with these particular people. 800 00:32:20.195 --> 00:32:22.765 Yeah. Um, and the relationships actually 801 00:32:22.765 --> 00:32:24.165 subsequently floundered. 802 00:32:24.505 --> 00:32:28.845 Um, and that night was actually a, a pivotal moment in 803 00:32:28.845 --> 00:32:31.205 that process, in, in the, in the unraveling. 804 00:32:31.345 --> 00:32:34.205 Mm-hmm. And, you know, the key takeaway from that experience 805 00:32:34.205 --> 00:32:36.485 for me was really an underlining of this work 806 00:32:36.505 --> 00:32:39.645 and something that I deeply believe to be true, which is 807 00:32:39.645 --> 00:32:40.805 that our stories are sacred. 808 00:32:42.105 --> 00:32:44.125 And, you know, when we share our stories, 809 00:32:44.545 --> 00:32:45.925 we are sharing our lives with people. 810 00:32:45.945 --> 00:32:48.685 And, and what I would encourage to be taught to children is 811 00:32:48.685 --> 00:32:50.245 for them to seek out friendships 812 00:32:50.385 --> 00:32:54.005 and relationships where their stories are at minimum safe. 813 00:32:54.225 --> 00:32:57.125 Mm-hmm. But really where their stories are honored 814 00:32:57.305 --> 00:32:59.365 and celebrated and considered sacred. 815 00:32:59.825 --> 00:33:01.405 And, you know, the way 816 00:33:01.405 --> 00:33:03.645 that we receive our children's stories is so crucial 817 00:33:03.645 --> 00:33:06.285 because this is what we're modeling for them in terms of 818 00:33:06.285 --> 00:33:08.045 how the stories should be received by others. 819 00:33:08.905 --> 00:33:12.875 And if we honor them as they tell their stories, 820 00:33:12.895 --> 00:33:14.595 and if we treasure what they tell us, 821 00:33:15.335 --> 00:33:16.995 we set the bar very high, 822 00:33:17.815 --> 00:33:19.595 and they will in turn set the bar 823 00:33:19.595 --> 00:33:20.995 high in their relationships. 824 00:33:21.455 --> 00:33:24.075 We don't need to explicitly teach to them, as I said before, 825 00:33:24.335 --> 00:33:26.115 but through the way that we respond to them. 826 00:33:26.295 --> 00:33:27.675 So much of this is implied. 827 00:33:28.135 --> 00:33:30.595 And I think they need to know what it feels like 828 00:33:30.855 --> 00:33:32.235 to be honored and to be valued, 829 00:33:32.335 --> 00:33:33.835 and for their stories to be safe and, 830 00:33:33.975 --> 00:33:35.315 and considered to be sacred. 831 00:33:35.895 --> 00:33:37.595 And that feeling will stay with them. 832 00:33:38.295 --> 00:33:40.275 And you know, if you think about it, our agency 833 00:33:40.275 --> 00:33:42.795 and our identity are affected by how I, 834 00:33:43.055 --> 00:33:45.155 our stories are received by those around us. 835 00:33:45.655 --> 00:33:46.795 We are either affirmed 836 00:33:47.135 --> 00:33:49.035 and encouraged, or we are discouraged. 837 00:33:49.415 --> 00:33:51.755 And that's why it's essential that we focus on relationships 838 00:33:51.755 --> 00:33:53.435 where we are edified and where our stories 839 00:33:53.455 --> 00:33:55.435 and in turn, our sense of self is validated. 840 00:33:55.935 --> 00:33:57.435 Um, and you know, one of my sisters, 841 00:33:57.815 --> 00:33:59.675 my youngest sister is a wonderful storyteller, 842 00:33:59.675 --> 00:34:01.435 and her stories are full of details. 843 00:34:01.895 --> 00:34:04.075 Mm-hmm. And, um, I'm sure 844 00:34:04.305 --> 00:34:06.715 that over the now more than 40 years 845 00:34:06.715 --> 00:34:08.155 that we've been telling each other stories, 846 00:34:08.225 --> 00:34:10.475 I've heard the same ones many, many times over. 847 00:34:11.215 --> 00:34:13.955 But to be honest, there's nothing that I love more than 848 00:34:13.955 --> 00:34:17.115 to listen to her and to the other people in my and, 849 00:34:17.115 --> 00:34:18.915 and to the other people in my life that are closest to me 850 00:34:18.915 --> 00:34:20.675 as, as they share and recount their stories. 851 00:34:20.775 --> 00:34:22.835 And even if I've heard them many times before, 852 00:34:22.935 --> 00:34:25.715 and there's a wonderful mentor of mine, um, that I talk 853 00:34:25.715 --> 00:34:28.395 to quite often, and she quotes the poet Mary Oliver to me, 854 00:34:28.975 --> 00:34:31.515 and there's a lovely line that Mary Oliver wrote that, 855 00:34:31.665 --> 00:34:34.715 that says, attention is the beginning of devotion. 856 00:34:34.935 --> 00:34:37.955 Mm-hmm. And another statement that I once heard, 857 00:34:37.955 --> 00:34:40.715 which really struck me, which is, is along those lines, 858 00:34:41.505 --> 00:34:43.835 it's, it said that something along the lines of, 859 00:34:44.125 --> 00:34:46.955 there are three words that are equal to I love you. 860 00:34:47.255 --> 00:34:49.555 Mm-hmm. They are, tell me more. 861 00:34:50.015 --> 00:34:51.955 That's really nice. Mm-hmm. 862 00:34:52.095 --> 00:34:54.155 And when you think about it though, Kate, 863 00:34:54.295 --> 00:34:56.115 how often do we say that to other people? 864 00:34:56.215 --> 00:34:57.635 How often do they say it to us? 865 00:34:57.815 --> 00:34:59.475 How often do we say it to the children? 866 00:35:00.535 --> 00:35:03.195 And I think we, we need to take a moment to reflect on 867 00:35:03.195 --> 00:35:05.395 how much we say that to others, how much time 868 00:35:05.415 --> 00:35:07.075 and attention we give them in, 869 00:35:07.075 --> 00:35:10.195 in today's hurried world, you know? Yeah. Tell me more. 870 00:35:10.655 --> 00:35:12.475 And I think as well on that point, 871 00:35:13.305 --> 00:35:15.235 like we're talking about teaching children 872 00:35:15.415 --> 00:35:19.315 to be storytellers, um, and to have their own story 873 00:35:19.415 --> 00:35:20.795 and have that sense of agency. 874 00:35:20.795 --> 00:35:23.115 But I think also there's a real importance in teaching 875 00:35:23.315 --> 00:35:24.515 children to be good listeners 876 00:35:25.255 --> 00:35:28.155 and to be able to listen really effectively and, 877 00:35:28.575 --> 00:35:31.275 and actually, you know, say the things 878 00:35:31.275 --> 00:35:33.035 that the other person goes, oh, I've been heard. 879 00:35:33.775 --> 00:35:36.195 So yeah, I think that is something, as adults, 880 00:35:36.195 --> 00:35:37.965 we can teach children in schools, isn't it? 881 00:35:38.585 --> 00:35:39.685 Um, absolutely. 882 00:35:39.835 --> 00:35:42.485 Abso to, to that active listening, to paraphrase, 883 00:35:42.545 --> 00:35:44.085 to repeat back to Yeah. 884 00:35:44.275 --> 00:35:45.845 When we're hurried to say I, and, 885 00:35:45.905 --> 00:35:48.685 and to let them know, you know, whatever the situation is, 886 00:35:48.705 --> 00:35:50.485 you know, we might, may be hurrying to do something. 887 00:35:50.645 --> 00:35:52.045 I want to hear you. What you have 888 00:35:52.045 --> 00:35:54.285 to say is important, you know, it's valuable. 889 00:35:54.465 --> 00:35:56.565 And, and I think exactly, 890 00:35:56.765 --> 00:35:59.525 I wrote a little bit about being seen that, um, we'll, 891 00:35:59.525 --> 00:36:01.565 we'll chat about later, but Absolutely. 892 00:36:01.885 --> 00:36:05.525 Children, and, and we all just want to be seen and heard. 893 00:36:05.795 --> 00:36:08.485 Yeah. It's true. And I think for everybody, 894 00:36:08.845 --> 00:36:11.685 children in particular, when you hear somebody say 895 00:36:11.685 --> 00:36:14.525 something, when you are listening, it's often a trigger 896 00:36:14.665 --> 00:36:16.485 for something in your mind that goes, oh, 897 00:36:16.965 --> 00:36:17.885 I wanna tell you something that 898 00:36:18.045 --> 00:36:19.085 happened to me, it relates to that. 899 00:36:19.105 --> 00:36:20.765 Or, I wanna tell you something about me that, 900 00:36:21.035 --> 00:36:22.605 that I remembered when you said that. 901 00:36:22.705 --> 00:36:25.245 Or, um, and then that kind of is like, you know, 902 00:36:25.245 --> 00:36:27.285 that you're like, oh, I'm waiting for this break for me 903 00:36:27.285 --> 00:36:29.325 to be able to say that and you kind of lose this. 904 00:36:29.465 --> 00:36:30.765 No, I'm here to just listen to you. 905 00:36:31.235 --> 00:36:32.605 Like, my job is just to listen 906 00:36:32.665 --> 00:36:35.005 to what's going on here. So yeah. 907 00:36:35.505 --> 00:36:38.725 100%. I did some of the clay work the other day Yes. 908 00:36:38.825 --> 00:36:42.165 For the first time, uh, with two children who were seven. 909 00:36:42.985 --> 00:36:45.805 And honestly, it was so interesting, 910 00:36:46.225 --> 00:36:49.365 the difference in just holding the space for them Yes. 911 00:36:49.365 --> 00:36:50.965 To be able to work with the clay 912 00:36:51.185 --> 00:36:54.005 and to be able to express themselves 913 00:36:54.265 --> 00:36:59.085 and not to teach, not to, not to preach, not to counsel, 914 00:36:59.385 --> 00:37:01.245 not to, just to hold the space. 915 00:37:01.305 --> 00:37:03.765 And I think what you said is exactly what we do. 916 00:37:04.145 --> 00:37:05.245 We listen to respond. 917 00:37:05.625 --> 00:37:06.645 Yes. Mm-hmm. 918 00:37:06.735 --> 00:37:10.135 We don't listen to really fully gather the information 919 00:37:10.155 --> 00:37:12.615 and to really, you know, fully understand 920 00:37:13.155 --> 00:37:15.935 and just to allow space, sort of at the beginning, 921 00:37:15.955 --> 00:37:18.335 at the end of, of what somebody is saying to us. 922 00:37:18.355 --> 00:37:20.495 It, it's so interesting. We are, we are really, we, 923 00:37:20.515 --> 00:37:22.215 we often are listening to respond and, 924 00:37:22.215 --> 00:37:23.495 and it's a different type of listening. 925 00:37:23.875 --> 00:37:26.335 So, and, and, and actually sometimes I think that listening 926 00:37:26.335 --> 00:37:29.295 to respond, um, sort 927 00:37:29.295 --> 00:37:31.375 of impacts the quality of the listening. 928 00:37:32.065 --> 00:37:35.255 We're not fully listening then, you know, so 929 00:37:35.725 --> 00:37:37.775 because part of our brain is actually distracted 930 00:37:37.775 --> 00:37:39.215 by the thing that we wish to say. 931 00:37:39.875 --> 00:37:41.975 And so it's really, it's very interesting. 932 00:37:42.005 --> 00:37:43.615 It's very, and and I think that that just 933 00:37:44.175 --> 00:37:47.455 stopping yourself counting to five, you know, and, 934 00:37:47.595 --> 00:37:50.575 and sometimes we don't have to say all the things we think. 935 00:37:51.115 --> 00:37:52.135 Yes. Yeah, it's true. 936 00:37:52.375 --> 00:37:54.175 'cause there is that kind of fear of, I don't say it now. 937 00:37:54.175 --> 00:37:55.455 I'm not gonna get it out. I'm gonna forget. 938 00:37:55.555 --> 00:37:57.255 I'm not gonna remember at the end of the conversation. 939 00:37:57.395 --> 00:37:59.575 And does it matter? Yeah. Yeah. 940 00:37:59.945 --> 00:38:02.575 Oftentimes not. Yeah. 941 00:38:03.575 --> 00:38:05.095 I think as I get older, I'm realizing that, 942 00:38:05.355 --> 00:38:06.615 you know, let let it go. 943 00:38:06.845 --> 00:38:07.845 Yeah. Yeah. 944 00:38:08.435 --> 00:38:11.695 That's, uh, it's interesting, um, just thinking about 945 00:38:11.695 --> 00:38:13.335 that, um, Helen, kind of like, 946 00:38:13.455 --> 00:38:15.255 I was thinking about the storytelling and the listening 947 00:38:15.255 --> 00:38:16.695 and all the things you talked about so far. 948 00:38:17.275 --> 00:38:20.215 Um, kind of another important fundamental part 949 00:38:20.215 --> 00:38:22.255 of storytelling really, is that language that we use. 950 00:38:22.695 --> 00:38:24.775 I don't if you just wanna chat a little bit more about that. 951 00:38:25.235 --> 00:38:26.655 Lev Vygotsky, the, um, 952 00:38:26.655 --> 00:38:29.055 Russian developmental psychologist said that the relation 953 00:38:29.055 --> 00:38:31.535 of thought to word is not a thing, but a process. 954 00:38:32.195 --> 00:38:33.655 So it's a continual movement back 955 00:38:33.655 --> 00:38:36.325 and forth from thought to word and from word to thought. 956 00:38:36.945 --> 00:38:39.565 And that thought is not merely expressed in words, 957 00:38:39.825 --> 00:38:42.365 it comes into existence through them. 958 00:38:43.345 --> 00:38:47.045 So our language creates, facilitates 959 00:38:47.105 --> 00:38:48.285 and expands our thinking. 960 00:38:48.665 --> 00:38:52.085 So this means that we have a tremendous responsibility in 961 00:38:52.085 --> 00:38:53.605 terms of the words we speak to children, 962 00:38:54.105 --> 00:38:56.885 and the language that we provide in their environment, 963 00:38:56.945 --> 00:38:59.005 the language that we use and model and teach. 964 00:38:59.705 --> 00:39:02.045 So let me give you a great example of this, which I've used 965 00:39:02.045 --> 00:39:03.045 before, but I think it's 966 00:39:03.045 --> 00:39:05.725 so essential in gaining an understanding of the importance 967 00:39:05.725 --> 00:39:06.965 of the accurate use of language. 968 00:39:07.065 --> 00:39:10.045 So there's a writer called Megan Cox Gerden, 969 00:39:10.185 --> 00:39:12.045 and in her book she wrote a wonderful, 970 00:39:12.045 --> 00:39:14.365 wonderful book on reading aloud with children. 971 00:39:14.665 --> 00:39:17.205 So children from very young ages to older children. 972 00:39:17.505 --> 00:39:18.925 And it's called The Enchanted Hour. 973 00:39:19.025 --> 00:39:21.965 If, if anybody, you know, could get ahold of it, it's a, 974 00:39:21.995 --> 00:39:23.845 it's really inspiring and wonderful. 975 00:39:24.425 --> 00:39:28.965 And she says, uh, she, she wrote, um, what I feel is just a, 976 00:39:29.045 --> 00:39:32.645 a wonderful explanation, um, about this. 977 00:39:33.185 --> 00:39:37.085 So she said, language allows children to occupy the world, 978 00:39:37.455 --> 00:39:39.085 their castle as owners. 979 00:39:39.905 --> 00:39:41.245 It means they can understand 980 00:39:41.265 --> 00:39:44.405 and describe things with texture and precision. 981 00:39:44.825 --> 00:39:46.485 It means that if a girl sees a dog 982 00:39:46.485 --> 00:39:48.565 or squirrel say, moving with great speed, 983 00:39:48.665 --> 00:39:50.125 she can describe what's happening. 984 00:39:50.665 --> 00:39:53.485 Is the creature darting or sprinting racing 985 00:39:53.665 --> 00:39:54.925 or fainting ambling 986 00:39:54.925 --> 00:39:57.365 or scampering, when something frightening happens, 987 00:39:57.545 --> 00:39:59.485 she can fine tune her explanation. 988 00:40:00.025 --> 00:40:04.205 It was chilling, alarming, macabre, ghastly, daunting, 989 00:40:04.465 --> 00:40:08.485 or perhaps just unpleasant gradations 990 00:40:08.545 --> 00:40:09.645 of meaning matter, 991 00:40:09.755 --> 00:40:12.445 because they bring us closer to the truth. 992 00:40:13.285 --> 00:40:16.785 Mm-hmm. And I love the statement, we want this for children 993 00:40:17.285 --> 00:40:18.745 to have the tools to be able 994 00:40:18.745 --> 00:40:22.625 to express themselves truthfully and to be understood. 995 00:40:22.965 --> 00:40:25.785 And what we also want in going back to Vygotsky here, is 996 00:40:25.785 --> 00:40:27.185 for them to think accurately. 997 00:40:27.605 --> 00:40:28.665 So for the last few years, 998 00:40:28.665 --> 00:40:30.825 there's been such a focus on positive thinking 999 00:40:30.845 --> 00:40:33.345 and something that I actually think is deeply flawed 1000 00:40:33.765 --> 00:40:35.705 and can lend itself to not acknowledging 1001 00:40:35.705 --> 00:40:36.785 the truth of situations. 1002 00:40:36.885 --> 00:40:38.665 So I think what we need 1003 00:40:38.665 --> 00:40:42.905 to teach children is accurate thinking and logical thinking 1004 00:40:42.965 --> 00:40:44.025 and critical thinking. 1005 00:40:44.025 --> 00:40:47.705 But as we said earlier, with a positive slant, so with hope, 1006 00:40:48.365 --> 00:40:51.225 yes, it's not a denial of the truth, it's not a denial 1007 00:40:51.245 --> 00:40:53.425 of the circumstances, but it's, it's, 1008 00:40:53.455 --> 00:40:55.265 it's accuracy, it's logical. 1009 00:40:55.525 --> 00:40:57.225 And then where do we go from here? 1010 00:40:57.805 --> 00:40:59.785 And so helping them to develop their vocabulary 1011 00:40:59.785 --> 00:41:00.985 and their language skills will further 1012 00:41:00.985 --> 00:41:02.265 enhance their thinking abilities. 1013 00:41:02.885 --> 00:41:05.065 But also, just lastly to consider, 1014 00:41:05.215 --> 00:41:08.185 Maya Angelou said something, she said something so powerful. 1015 00:41:08.805 --> 00:41:11.025 She, she, she described words in this way, 1016 00:41:11.025 --> 00:41:15.345 and she said, words are things, someday we'll be able 1017 00:41:15.345 --> 00:41:16.905 to measure the power of words. 1018 00:41:17.545 --> 00:41:19.785 I think they are things they get on the walls, 1019 00:41:20.495 --> 00:41:23.665 they get in your wallpaper, they get in your rugs, 1020 00:41:23.765 --> 00:41:27.145 in your upholstery and your clothes, and finally into you. 1021 00:41:27.565 --> 00:41:31.745 Mm-hmm. And so, you know, to, just to ask the listeners and, 1022 00:41:31.765 --> 00:41:35.005 and for all of us to consider, you know, what words, this is 1023 00:41:35.005 --> 00:41:36.085 what we just touched on briefly, 1024 00:41:36.155 --> 00:41:37.645 what words are getting into your children? 1025 00:41:38.345 --> 00:41:39.805 So the children that you're teaching 1026 00:41:39.805 --> 00:41:42.205 and raising, what stories are you telling about them? 1027 00:41:42.665 --> 00:41:44.925 And to them to encourage them and to edify them 1028 00:41:44.925 --> 00:41:46.805 and to build them, you know, stories and language 1029 00:41:46.865 --> 00:41:48.685 and words change us the content, 1030 00:41:48.945 --> 00:41:50.965 the manner in which we speak are emphasis. 1031 00:41:51.505 --> 00:41:54.405 And I think we all have words that have been spoken to us 1032 00:41:54.465 --> 00:41:55.845 or about us that we remember. 1033 00:41:56.105 --> 00:41:58.325 Mm-hmm. The ones that break us 1034 00:41:58.555 --> 00:42:00.765 that might have taken us many years to work through 1035 00:42:00.765 --> 00:42:02.125 and to counteract or defeat. 1036 00:42:02.625 --> 00:42:05.645 And the ones that build us, that remain with us always sort 1037 00:42:05.645 --> 00:42:08.285 of as these warm kind of embers in our soul. 1038 00:42:09.105 --> 00:42:12.925 So it's for all of us to consider our words so carefully 1039 00:42:12.945 --> 00:42:14.685 before we decide to speak them. 1040 00:42:14.825 --> 00:42:16.725 Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, it's interesting. 1041 00:42:16.955 --> 00:42:20.125 I'll tell you what's comes through more for me as an adult, 1042 00:42:20.865 --> 00:42:23.565 um, in many, many conversations that I have 1043 00:42:23.595 --> 00:42:25.765 with different people, with different mental health issues, 1044 00:42:25.915 --> 00:42:28.045 very different upbringings, very different backgrounds, 1045 00:42:28.115 --> 00:42:29.645 very different words that they've heard. 1046 00:42:30.385 --> 00:42:34.765 The one thing that most people kind of come down to 1047 00:42:35.425 --> 00:42:36.805 is a feeling of not being good enough. 1048 00:42:37.675 --> 00:42:40.725 Like there's this, at some point there was some words 1049 00:42:40.825 --> 00:42:42.565 or something that happened that made them feel 1050 00:42:42.565 --> 00:42:44.245 that they're not good enough in some way. 1051 00:42:45.145 --> 00:42:49.885 And I think it's really important for us to get that 1052 00:42:49.905 --> 00:42:51.845 for our children, that they feel good enough. 1053 00:42:52.555 --> 00:42:55.245 Like, I don't know if that's, I dunno if you've come across 1054 00:42:55.245 --> 00:42:57.685 that anywhere, but it just seems to be something that 1055 00:42:58.305 --> 00:43:00.725 in conversations with, with adults that are having kind 1056 00:43:00.725 --> 00:43:02.125 of adulthood this real feeling of, 1057 00:43:02.125 --> 00:43:04.925 in some way something happened, something was said 1058 00:43:04.925 --> 00:43:06.765 that's really embedded in their soul 1059 00:43:06.825 --> 00:43:08.725 and made them feel that in some way they're not 1060 00:43:09.155 --> 00:43:11.045 what they should be, or good enough 1061 00:43:11.065 --> 00:43:13.925 or as good as somebody else, or so, yeah. 1062 00:43:14.975 --> 00:43:16.635 No, I, I think I encounter the same thing. 1063 00:43:16.635 --> 00:43:18.435 And I have to be honest with you, that much of it 1064 00:43:18.435 --> 00:43:20.155 that I encounter is around education. 1065 00:43:20.745 --> 00:43:22.515 Much of it is around education and, 1066 00:43:22.535 --> 00:43:23.675 and a feeling of inadequacy. 1067 00:43:23.675 --> 00:43:26.635 And I think, you know, that's why I love the idea of sort 1068 00:43:26.635 --> 00:43:27.995 of formative assessment and, 1069 00:43:28.015 --> 00:43:30.995 and always focusing, you know, from the time the, from, 1070 00:43:31.385 --> 00:43:33.555 from the time that children are very young, you know, 1071 00:43:33.555 --> 00:43:35.035 and I think with each other two 1072 00:43:35.215 --> 00:43:37.355 and in our lives is, I mean, two things here. 1073 00:43:37.735 --> 00:43:40.395 One is always looking at what you can do. Yes. 1074 00:43:40.535 --> 00:43:42.995 So what can you do? What are your strengths? 1075 00:43:42.995 --> 00:43:44.675 And, and what are you working towards? 1076 00:43:44.815 --> 00:43:46.195 You know, not that, not that what, 1077 00:43:46.265 --> 00:43:48.075 what does this child cannot do this, 1078 00:43:48.135 --> 00:43:49.595 or this child is not doing this, 1079 00:43:49.695 --> 00:43:52.355 or this person is, is student is not doing this. 1080 00:43:52.375 --> 00:43:53.795 And I think we do that with each 1081 00:43:53.795 --> 00:43:54.835 other in our lives, I think. 1082 00:43:54.835 --> 00:43:57.235 Um, but I think it's, it's rather looking at, at somebody 1083 00:43:57.235 --> 00:43:58.675 and saying, wow, those are their strengths. 1084 00:43:58.775 --> 00:44:02.195 You know, she's a great baker, she's such a giver, you know, 1085 00:44:02.195 --> 00:44:03.395 she, you know, it, it's that. 1086 00:44:03.495 --> 00:44:05.675 So I think that that's, that's number one. 1087 00:44:05.675 --> 00:44:09.155 And the other thing that I think is, I think that this, 1088 00:44:09.155 --> 00:44:10.795 these feelings of inadequacy 1089 00:44:11.455 --> 00:44:15.635 and these feelings of being stuck in, in certain, um, 1090 00:44:15.635 --> 00:44:16.875 descriptions of who we are. 1091 00:44:17.715 --> 00:44:20.355 I think, again, it comes down to stories a a lot. 1092 00:44:20.535 --> 00:44:22.195 You know, I have, I have three siblings, 1093 00:44:22.715 --> 00:44:23.715 I have a large family. 1094 00:44:24.335 --> 00:44:27.195 And, um, I think what's really interesting is 1095 00:44:27.195 --> 00:44:30.555 that oftentimes, and these are just family dynamics, right? 1096 00:44:30.555 --> 00:44:31.780 This is just, just people all over. 1097 00:44:31.785 --> 00:44:33.805 But I think, I don't know if you find this, Kate, 1098 00:44:33.825 --> 00:44:36.845 but we tell each other, we tell ourselves 1099 00:44:37.265 --> 00:44:40.605 and other people outdated stories Yes. 1100 00:44:40.935 --> 00:44:43.165 About, about, about others in our lives. 1101 00:44:43.185 --> 00:44:44.805 So we, we, we, we hold onto them 1102 00:44:44.985 --> 00:44:46.805 or we formulate them, we hold onto them, 1103 00:44:47.185 --> 00:44:49.605 and we continue to tell ourselves those stories. 1104 00:44:49.745 --> 00:44:52.605 And I think oftentimes, particularly with the people closest 1105 00:44:52.705 --> 00:44:54.765 to us, we don't allow them to evolve. 1106 00:44:55.225 --> 00:44:57.525 And, and you'll often see this in, in, in nurseries, 1107 00:44:57.525 --> 00:44:58.525 in schools, in settings. 1108 00:44:58.785 --> 00:45:01.885 That's the child who's behaves in this way. 1109 00:45:02.355 --> 00:45:04.485 They are this, you know, and they're labeled. 1110 00:45:04.865 --> 00:45:09.725 And it's very, very hard to, to once, once that's there to, 1111 00:45:09.785 --> 00:45:12.605 to write it, to, to tell a new story, to write a new story. 1112 00:45:12.985 --> 00:45:14.085 Um, and I think, and we, 1113 00:45:14.085 --> 00:45:16.405 and so we do this through, through, throughout our lives. 1114 00:45:16.465 --> 00:45:19.235 And I think, I think again, it's, it's 1115 00:45:19.235 --> 00:45:21.995 that it's taking a moment to think, is this actually true? 1116 00:45:22.705 --> 00:45:25.675 Does the story apply to the sibling that I I, 1117 00:45:25.755 --> 00:45:27.875 I hardly ever see year after year? 1118 00:45:27.905 --> 00:45:29.235 Does the story still apply to them? 1119 00:45:29.235 --> 00:45:30.835 You know, does this narrative fit? 1120 00:45:31.095 --> 00:45:32.395 And oftentimes it doesn't. 1121 00:45:32.775 --> 00:45:34.595 And so I think it's, it's those two things. 1122 00:45:34.705 --> 00:45:38.315 It's focusing on, on what people can do, what, what is, 1123 00:45:38.315 --> 00:45:39.795 what is it about them that, you know, 1124 00:45:40.195 --> 00:45:41.275 focusing on the strengths and then, 1125 00:45:41.455 --> 00:45:43.835 and allowing all of us 1126 00:45:44.615 --> 00:45:48.995 to live out new stories every day, to grow to, to, I think 1127 00:45:48.995 --> 00:45:51.515 that's the, the hope and the freedom, right, is Yeah, 1128 00:45:51.535 --> 00:45:52.835 that's what I would say to that. 1129 00:45:53.105 --> 00:45:55.195 Yeah. And I think also you saying about the system, 1130 00:45:55.425 --> 00:45:58.955 like the education system, I think that often the story 1131 00:45:58.975 --> 00:46:00.755 of education is quite outdated. 1132 00:46:01.545 --> 00:46:04.115 Like it's something that maybe fit a system 1133 00:46:04.145 --> 00:46:05.155 that worked years ago. 1134 00:46:05.215 --> 00:46:07.035 And we talk about this a lot, um, 1135 00:46:07.335 --> 00:46:10.355 and I'm sure there's, there's that, like you saying, kind 1136 00:46:10.355 --> 00:46:11.635 of finding children's strengths 1137 00:46:11.635 --> 00:46:13.475 and having space to find their strengths. 1138 00:46:13.895 --> 00:46:15.715 And that might not be math, literacy 1139 00:46:15.715 --> 00:46:17.555 or science, it might be the 1140 00:46:17.555 --> 00:46:18.635 way that they are with their friends. 1141 00:46:18.655 --> 00:46:20.875 It might be something that they do that's musical, 1142 00:46:21.055 --> 00:46:23.395 it might be something that drama. 1143 00:46:24.375 --> 00:46:25.995 Yep, yep, yep. 1144 00:46:26.375 --> 00:46:28.995 Making space for those children to find that passion, 1145 00:46:28.995 --> 00:46:30.515 because like, we don't know 1146 00:46:30.515 --> 00:46:31.675 what they're gonna become in the future 1147 00:46:31.815 --> 00:46:33.035 and what their story's gonna be. 1148 00:46:33.655 --> 00:46:36.035 And, and if we can't foster that in school, 1149 00:46:36.425 --> 00:46:37.435 they are gonna come out. 1150 00:46:37.435 --> 00:46:40.075 And I, I know a lot of adults that did come out 1151 00:46:40.075 --> 00:46:43.795 of the education system and didn't really know where to go 1152 00:46:43.795 --> 00:46:45.555 and what to do and what their passion was. 1153 00:46:45.695 --> 00:46:47.215 No. So I think 1154 00:46:47.415 --> 00:46:48.415 Absolutely. And, and, and, and, 1155 00:46:48.415 --> 00:46:49.215 and along with 1156 00:46:49.215 --> 00:46:50.295 that, a narrative of failure. 1157 00:46:50.755 --> 00:46:52.735 Yes. A narrative, you know, it, it's story of failure. 1158 00:46:52.995 --> 00:46:55.175 And, and all it is, is that they, you know, they absolutely, 1159 00:46:55.175 --> 00:46:56.935 they hadn't discovered their thing. 1160 00:46:56.955 --> 00:46:59.535 And, and oftentimes I don't think you, you know, there, 1161 00:46:59.535 --> 00:47:01.535 there are many instances where people don't discover 1162 00:47:01.535 --> 00:47:02.655 it until later in life. 1163 00:47:02.955 --> 00:47:05.375 You know, you, you sort of need to crack on and, and, 1164 00:47:05.595 --> 00:47:07.535 and get a job and do the next thing. 1165 00:47:08.115 --> 00:47:10.175 And, and sometimes it takes time, you know, 1166 00:47:10.175 --> 00:47:11.735 but that, that academic model, 1167 00:47:11.835 --> 00:47:13.655 it doesn't work for many, many people. 1168 00:47:13.795 --> 00:47:16.055 And I, as you say, I know many people in life, 1169 00:47:16.055 --> 00:47:17.615 they have a narrative of failure, and it's 1170 00:47:17.615 --> 00:47:19.095 because they didn't fit into the narrow 1171 00:47:19.175 --> 00:47:20.455 confines of that system. 1172 00:47:21.275 --> 00:47:24.095 Um, great. I know great entrepreneurs, great, you know, 1173 00:47:24.095 --> 00:47:25.295 really talented people. 1174 00:47:25.875 --> 00:47:29.015 So, so yes, we have to, we have to be brave enough to, to, 1175 00:47:29.025 --> 00:47:32.245 to tell different stories and to also to to reassess, 1176 00:47:32.245 --> 00:47:33.525 you know, what education is 1177 00:47:33.525 --> 00:47:35.925 and also to reassess what success looks like. 1178 00:47:37.005 --> 00:47:39.085 I think. So. So I think, yeah, I think it's just kind 1179 00:47:39.085 --> 00:47:41.765 of a big message to get across there about supporting our 1180 00:47:41.845 --> 00:47:42.885 children to feel good enough, isn't it? 1181 00:47:43.605 --> 00:47:45.685 Absolutely. And Another fundamental part 1182 00:47:45.715 --> 00:47:48.085 that I feel is kind of coming through what you're saying is 1183 00:47:48.085 --> 00:47:51.245 that emotional side, that emotion differentiation, 1184 00:47:52.055 --> 00:47:54.165 which ties in very closely with language 1185 00:47:54.165 --> 00:47:55.845 and children being able to talk their truth. 1186 00:47:56.465 --> 00:47:58.845 Um, do you want to expand a little bit more on that? 1187 00:48:00.335 --> 00:48:02.675 Yes. So, um, so emotional d emotion, 1188 00:48:02.745 --> 00:48:05.715 emotional granularity, which is also known as emotional. 1189 00:48:06.095 --> 00:48:08.715 Um, differentiation is the ability to point 1190 00:48:09.055 --> 00:48:11.195 to pinpoint exactly how we are feeling. 1191 00:48:11.455 --> 00:48:14.715 So using words that are more specific than the usual, happy, 1192 00:48:15.175 --> 00:48:16.435 sad, angry, excited. 1193 00:48:16.855 --> 00:48:18.355 So language usage is key here, 1194 00:48:18.355 --> 00:48:19.875 because assigning a specific label 1195 00:48:19.975 --> 00:48:21.755 to a specific emotion means that you're able 1196 00:48:21.755 --> 00:48:22.995 to identify them more clearly. 1197 00:48:23.895 --> 00:48:26.635 And I'd like us to take a look at this word wheel on the 1198 00:48:26.635 --> 00:48:30.275 slide for a minute, and to consider our own language 1199 00:48:30.275 --> 00:48:31.915 and the language we use with the children in 1200 00:48:31.915 --> 00:48:33.035 our care on a daily basis. 1201 00:48:33.955 --> 00:48:36.975 So just consider saying, just to consider saying to a child 1202 00:48:37.205 --> 00:48:40.115 that they're a bit cross, when 1203 00:48:40.115 --> 00:48:42.955 what they are is actually deeply frustrated. 1204 00:48:43.175 --> 00:48:46.155 Or when we say to a child that they're sad when 1205 00:48:46.155 --> 00:48:48.715 what they feel is, is despair or heartbreak. 1206 00:48:49.095 --> 00:48:52.355 So we are offering them literal crumbs when 1207 00:48:52.355 --> 00:48:53.395 what we have in terms 1208 00:48:53.395 --> 00:48:56.035 of language at our disposal is a feast. 1209 00:48:56.695 --> 00:48:57.875 So it takes commitment 1210 00:48:57.875 --> 00:48:59.755 and it takes work to nourish them with this, 1211 00:49:00.135 --> 00:49:03.315 but it's really imperative in terms of their wellbeing. 1212 00:49:04.295 --> 00:49:05.675 So the interesting thing is 1213 00:49:05.675 --> 00:49:08.675 that low level emotional granularity means 1214 00:49:08.675 --> 00:49:10.555 that you're using a very limited amount 1215 00:49:10.555 --> 00:49:11.875 of words to express yourself. 1216 00:49:12.015 --> 00:49:13.675 So things like happy and sad 1217 00:49:13.695 --> 00:49:16.635 and cross, while high level granularity means 1218 00:49:16.635 --> 00:49:18.275 that you have the vca the vocabulary 1219 00:49:18.275 --> 00:49:20.155 to accurately label your emotions. 1220 00:49:21.215 --> 00:49:24.395 So the researcher Brene Brown says that learning 1221 00:49:24.395 --> 00:49:27.555 to label emotions with a more nuanced vocabulary can be 1222 00:49:28.115 --> 00:49:29.435 absolutely transformative. 1223 00:49:30.535 --> 00:49:33.355 So in fact, recent research has shown that when our access 1224 00:49:33.355 --> 00:49:36.295 to emotional language is blocked, our ability 1225 00:49:36.295 --> 00:49:38.815 to interpret incoming emotional information is 1226 00:49:38.815 --> 00:49:40.575 significantly diminished. 1227 00:49:41.295 --> 00:49:43.375 Likewise, having the correct words 1228 00:49:43.435 --> 00:49:46.575 to describe specific emotions makes us better able 1229 00:49:46.575 --> 00:49:50.455 to identify those emotions in others as well as to recognize 1230 00:49:50.455 --> 00:49:52.215 and manage the emotional experiences when 1231 00:49:52.215 --> 00:49:53.295 we feel them ourselves. 1232 00:49:55.105 --> 00:49:57.465 Research shows that people with low emotional granularity, 1233 00:49:57.465 --> 00:49:59.625 particularly the inability to distinguish 1234 00:49:59.625 --> 00:50:02.785 between negative emotions are more likely 1235 00:50:02.805 --> 00:50:03.985 to experience depression 1236 00:50:04.005 --> 00:50:06.505 and social anxiety disorders, while people 1237 00:50:06.505 --> 00:50:09.665 with high emotional granularity tend to be less reactive 1238 00:50:09.665 --> 00:50:13.425 to rejection and failures experience fewer bouts of anxiety 1239 00:50:13.425 --> 00:50:16.465 and depression, and are generally less prone 1240 00:50:16.465 --> 00:50:19.425 to self-sabotaging coping strategies like excessive drinking 1241 00:50:19.565 --> 00:50:21.425 and incidents of violence or aggression. 1242 00:50:22.365 --> 00:50:24.825 And, and here's something really fascinating to think about. 1243 00:50:25.055 --> 00:50:27.965 Even phobias seemed to improve 1244 00:50:27.965 --> 00:50:29.805 with emotional granularity techniques. 1245 00:50:29.825 --> 00:50:32.485 So those struggling with arachnophobia who learned 1246 00:50:32.485 --> 00:50:34.765 to describe their feelings when faced with spiders 1247 00:50:35.355 --> 00:50:38.405 experienced less anxiety than people who were coached 1248 00:50:38.985 --> 00:50:41.325 to think po to either think positively about the spider 1249 00:50:41.585 --> 00:50:43.005 or ignored entirely, 1250 00:50:43.715 --> 00:50:45.965 they were even more comfortably comfortable 1251 00:50:45.965 --> 00:50:47.805 with physically approaching the spiders. 1252 00:50:48.425 --> 00:50:50.565 Really interesting. That's really interesting. 1253 00:50:51.115 --> 00:50:54.125 Like, it's really fascinating to kind of think about how, 1254 00:50:55.105 --> 00:50:56.205 how this all comes together 1255 00:50:56.225 --> 00:50:58.085 and how all these aspects come into play. 1256 00:50:58.315 --> 00:51:00.245 Like where stories can make such 1257 00:51:00.285 --> 00:51:01.325 a huge difference for children. 1258 00:51:02.155 --> 00:51:04.165 Like there's all this research 1259 00:51:04.235 --> 00:51:06.205 that just these small tweaks here 1260 00:51:06.205 --> 00:51:07.645 and there, these things that you can teach them 1261 00:51:07.705 --> 00:51:09.925 and how much of a difference that can make for them. 1262 00:51:10.465 --> 00:51:13.285 Um, go on. Sorry, Hannah. 1263 00:51:13.825 --> 00:51:17.125 No, I think, and what it really comes down to is voice. 1264 00:51:17.475 --> 00:51:20.765 It's, it's, it's providing them with the ability 1265 00:51:21.585 --> 00:51:25.925 to use their unique voice to be better heard, 1266 00:51:26.185 --> 00:51:27.325 better understood. 1267 00:51:27.385 --> 00:51:29.245 And that's what fosters connection with other people. 1268 00:51:29.465 --> 00:51:32.245 And I think really that's what it comes down to is to the, 1269 00:51:32.265 --> 00:51:34.725 the ability to communicate their stories. 1270 00:51:34.835 --> 00:51:37.205 What does life look like for them? Awesome. 1271 00:51:37.355 --> 00:51:38.485 Yeah. Um, one 1272 00:51:38.485 --> 00:51:40.365 of the things I'm spotting on the wheel here, Helen, 1273 00:51:40.505 --> 00:51:42.365 is the word or, um, 1274 00:51:42.545 --> 00:51:44.245 and it is something we hear in schools quite a lot 1275 00:51:44.405 --> 00:51:46.245 'cause there's that whole thing of awe and wonder. 1276 00:51:46.985 --> 00:51:49.725 Um, and I think it's probably maybe an interesting 1277 00:51:49.725 --> 00:51:52.685 to chat about, um, it's something that you kind 1278 00:51:52.685 --> 00:51:53.685 of mentioned last time. 1279 00:51:53.865 --> 00:51:55.245 We talked about story 1280 00:51:55.305 --> 00:51:57.285 and you were talking about it, awe, in relation to story. 1281 00:51:58.065 --> 00:51:59.765 Do you want to just talk a little bit more about that 1282 00:51:59.785 --> 00:52:01.325 and explain it to us before we kind 1283 00:52:01.325 --> 00:52:02.805 of wrap the webinar up today? 1284 00:52:03.545 --> 00:52:07.045 Always defined as a feeling of reverential respect mixed 1285 00:52:07.045 --> 00:52:08.245 with fear or wonder. 1286 00:52:08.305 --> 00:52:10.645 And you're absolutely right at the moment there are, 1287 00:52:10.915 --> 00:52:13.605 there's a lot of sort of buzz around awe and wonder. 1288 00:52:14.225 --> 00:52:16.645 And, um, I did some research on it after we spoke 1289 00:52:16.645 --> 00:52:18.885 because I'm very interested in the, in the concept. 1290 00:52:19.305 --> 00:52:22.005 And there was a lovely article for spirituality and health. 1291 00:52:22.005 --> 00:52:23.525 There's a writer by the name of Ruth Wilson, 1292 00:52:23.745 --> 00:52:26.245 and she cited some research carried out 1293 00:52:26.245 --> 00:52:29.685 by a man named Jeff Thompson at Columbia University, um, 1294 00:52:30.295 --> 00:52:32.525 about how all narratives, 1295 00:52:32.785 --> 00:52:35.725 so all stories can literally transform your life. 1296 00:52:36.425 --> 00:52:38.445 So what is an or narrative? 1297 00:52:38.645 --> 00:52:40.725 I I, you know, people might ask, so, 1298 00:52:40.745 --> 00:52:43.525 or narratives are basically stories in which we recall 1299 00:52:43.625 --> 00:52:46.005 and reflect on, or experiences. 1300 00:52:46.945 --> 00:52:50.005 So the research mentioned shows that telling stories 1301 00:52:50.005 --> 00:52:51.925 of this nature can enhance mental health, 1302 00:52:52.465 --> 00:52:54.965 it can enhance resilience and overall wellbeing. 1303 00:52:55.345 --> 00:52:56.845 And the research also shows 1304 00:52:56.845 --> 00:52:59.445 that developing all narratives increases the ability 1305 00:52:59.505 --> 00:53:03.925 to elicit further awe and to live an awe-inspired life. 1306 00:53:04.105 --> 00:53:06.485 Mm-hmm. So there's an author by the name of Paul 1307 00:53:07.395 --> 00:53:09.765 Psel in a book titled Awe the Delight 1308 00:53:09.765 --> 00:53:11.125 and Dangers of our 11th Emotions. 1309 00:53:11.125 --> 00:53:12.245 So this is the, the emotion 1310 00:53:12.245 --> 00:53:13.405 that they've identified in our 1311 00:53:13.405 --> 00:53:14.645 now researching very strongly. 1312 00:53:15.185 --> 00:53:17.125 Um, also writes about the power of awe 1313 00:53:17.125 --> 00:53:19.485 and the value of ex of recalling experiences 1314 00:53:19.635 --> 00:53:21.725 that elicit feelings of wonder. 1315 00:53:22.625 --> 00:53:25.205 He explains how all experiences can enrich our lives, 1316 00:53:25.385 --> 00:53:27.605 not only at the moment that we experience them, 1317 00:53:28.105 --> 00:53:31.125 but as memories that we carry with us over time. 1318 00:53:32.025 --> 00:53:34.565 And I love this. So there's an environmental psychologist 1319 00:53:34.615 --> 00:53:37.045 cited in the same article, Louise Chola, 1320 00:53:37.065 --> 00:53:41.845 and she says that these memories of all serve 1321 00:53:42.185 --> 00:53:44.005 as, and I love this description, 1322 00:53:44.675 --> 00:53:47.245 radioactive jewels buried within us 1323 00:53:47.925 --> 00:53:50.925 emitting energy across the years of our life. 1324 00:53:51.895 --> 00:53:55.245 Isn't that so incredibly powerful? Yeah, it's 1325 00:53:55.245 --> 00:53:56.245 True. It's true. Because 1326 00:53:56.245 --> 00:53:57.845 you think about those really, 1327 00:53:58.305 --> 00:54:00.565 really beautiful, lovely childhood moments. 1328 00:54:00.835 --> 00:54:03.965 Like, you know, like I had a lot of times on the beach 1329 00:54:04.105 --> 00:54:07.165 and singing and barbecues and in the sea 1330 00:54:07.305 --> 00:54:09.565 and all of those kind of, yeah. 1331 00:54:09.875 --> 00:54:12.685 Wonderful. They keep you warm inside, don't they? Right. 1332 00:54:13.165 --> 00:54:14.485 Absolutely. Absolutely. 1333 00:54:15.085 --> 00:54:16.285 I, I think there's that wonder, 1334 00:54:16.905 --> 00:54:19.245 and then I think there's the, that that awe, that is sort 1335 00:54:19.245 --> 00:54:22.085 of those life changing moments where you experience things 1336 00:54:22.085 --> 00:54:24.365 that are sort of quite infinite, you know, that are, 1337 00:54:24.435 --> 00:54:25.885 that are, that are huge. 1338 00:54:26.385 --> 00:54:29.805 And, um, what they said that, you know, the, the way 1339 00:54:29.805 --> 00:54:31.605 that the all stories work to change us is 1340 00:54:31.605 --> 00:54:34.205 that they often involve a sense of vastness 1341 00:54:34.205 --> 00:54:36.365 that puts into perspective your own relatively 1342 00:54:36.365 --> 00:54:37.485 small place in the world. 1343 00:54:38.225 --> 00:54:41.085 So this vastness can either be physical, it can be like a, 1344 00:54:41.125 --> 00:54:43.445 a sort of a panoramic view from a mountaintop, 1345 00:54:43.445 --> 00:54:44.485 or it can be psychological. 1346 00:54:44.745 --> 00:54:48.605 So you'll hear about something some exceptionally courageous 1347 00:54:48.605 --> 00:54:51.005 or heroic act of conscience or, you know, something. 1348 00:54:51.005 --> 00:54:53.885 And it, and, and it actually shifts the way 1349 00:54:53.955 --> 00:54:55.205 that you understand the world. 1350 00:54:56.145 --> 00:55:00.165 So what it does is it might make your everyday concerns seem 1351 00:55:00.235 --> 00:55:01.285 sort of less important, 1352 00:55:01.585 --> 00:55:06.365 or it might expand your, your views on, on humanity, um, 1353 00:55:06.545 --> 00:55:07.885 and, and human potential. 1354 00:55:08.225 --> 00:55:09.365 And, and it's interesting 1355 00:55:09.365 --> 00:55:12.815 because actually with these current events, 1356 00:55:14.055 --> 00:55:15.345 what I found myself doing, 1357 00:55:15.345 --> 00:55:17.905 because they are have been awesome on a, 1358 00:55:17.905 --> 00:55:20.425 on a horrific scale, on a on on that level, 1359 00:55:20.855 --> 00:55:23.865 what I found myself doing is in my life, you know, 1360 00:55:23.865 --> 00:55:25.785 something would happen or, or come up 1361 00:55:25.785 --> 00:55:28.105 and I would think, that's not a problem, Helen. 1362 00:55:28.125 --> 00:55:29.865 You know, that's, that's, that's not a problem. 1363 00:55:29.925 --> 00:55:31.385 You can solve that. And, and what it, 1364 00:55:31.615 --> 00:55:35.665 what the events did is, is really shift my perspective to, 1365 00:55:35.805 --> 00:55:37.425 you know, what, what matters at this point 1366 00:55:37.425 --> 00:55:38.705 and what doesn't, right? 1367 00:55:38.775 --> 00:55:40.625 What, what are other people experiencing? 1368 00:55:41.285 --> 00:55:42.985 Um, and so that's interesting 1369 00:55:42.985 --> 00:55:45.425 because that it is really perspective shifting 1370 00:55:45.725 --> 00:55:47.905 and, um, you know, the stories 1371 00:55:47.965 --> 00:55:50.425 of awe often shared going back to connections. 1372 00:55:50.425 --> 00:55:52.505 So they, they're often communal experiences 1373 00:55:52.685 --> 00:55:54.385 and events that we partake in. 1374 00:55:54.405 --> 00:55:56.185 And, and again, this leads to, 1375 00:55:56.565 --> 00:55:58.745 to a greater degree of interconnection. 1376 00:55:58.765 --> 00:56:01.025 And, you know, we as people really, 1377 00:56:01.085 --> 00:56:02.625 we are basically just a collection 1378 00:56:02.625 --> 00:56:05.145 of interwoven, interwoven stories. 1379 00:56:05.245 --> 00:56:06.625 You know, we're a tapestry, right? 1380 00:56:06.885 --> 00:56:10.305 Um, and if only we were more cognizant of this, I think. 1381 00:56:11.175 --> 00:56:12.265 Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. 1382 00:56:12.705 --> 00:56:15.625 I always think if I'm having a particularly bad day, um, 1383 00:56:16.025 --> 00:56:18.705 somebody said to me once, they said, your worst day, 1384 00:56:18.925 --> 00:56:20.225 the worst day you could ever had 1385 00:56:20.225 --> 00:56:21.385 is somebody else's best day. 1386 00:56:22.045 --> 00:56:25.765 And it's so true. Like the worst air could possibly have you 1387 00:56:25.765 --> 00:56:28.965 give that day to some of the people that are experiencing 1388 00:56:28.965 --> 00:56:30.445 what they are now with what's going on. 1389 00:56:30.445 --> 00:56:32.045 They would just think they were in heaven, wouldn't they? 1390 00:56:32.705 --> 00:56:34.885 No, it is, it does put things into context 1391 00:56:35.025 --> 00:56:36.285 to make you a lot more appreciative 1392 00:56:36.285 --> 00:56:37.405 of what you have, doesn't it? 1393 00:56:38.565 --> 00:56:40.405 Absolutely. And that's, and that's the, that's 1394 00:56:40.405 --> 00:56:43.165 that ability to step into somebody else's story, isn't it? 1395 00:56:43.165 --> 00:56:45.805 And that's what brings us, um, you know, 1396 00:56:45.805 --> 00:56:47.925 there's the empathy, there's the humanity, 1397 00:56:47.925 --> 00:56:50.005 there's the compassion, there's the perspective. 1398 00:56:50.515 --> 00:56:51.725 It's all, all of those things. 1399 00:56:51.825 --> 00:56:54.125 You know, people, I think they often think of stories 1400 00:56:54.225 --> 00:56:55.445 as, as entertainment. 1401 00:56:55.905 --> 00:56:59.765 Um, they, they are life that we are all merely a collection 1402 00:56:59.885 --> 00:57:03.605 of stories and they, they, they're constantly working 1403 00:57:03.745 --> 00:57:05.085 to change our lives. 1404 00:57:05.185 --> 00:57:08.885 Really. There is so much power in contained within them. 1405 00:57:09.475 --> 00:57:12.445 Yeah, that's true. Um, so Helen, you kind 1406 00:57:12.445 --> 00:57:14.205 of mentioned earlier that you had some main points for us 1407 00:57:14.205 --> 00:57:15.965 to take away and think about in terms of stories. 1408 00:57:16.105 --> 00:57:18.165 Do you want to have a chat about that now? 1409 00:57:19.525 --> 00:57:22.535 Yeah. So firstly, so if we think about stories, 1410 00:57:22.715 --> 00:57:23.775 so they're a start. 1411 00:57:24.115 --> 00:57:26.455 So they're a springboard, so we can use them 1412 00:57:26.455 --> 00:57:27.455 to explore worlds. 1413 00:57:27.555 --> 00:57:29.015 We can think about where 1414 00:57:29.035 --> 00:57:30.295 and how you can jump off, 1415 00:57:30.485 --> 00:57:32.215 what can you further explore together. 1416 00:57:32.515 --> 00:57:33.775 So if you think with children, 1417 00:57:33.775 --> 00:57:35.615 something like the hungry caterpillar, 1418 00:57:35.875 --> 00:57:37.935 you have something familiar that you can explore 1419 00:57:37.935 --> 00:57:40.175 and do you have the food, you can cut up fruit, 1420 00:57:40.235 --> 00:57:42.415 you can cook sausages, you can bake cupcakes, 1421 00:57:42.755 --> 00:57:43.775 and then you have nature. 1422 00:57:44.045 --> 00:57:46.855 What about the leaves? What about the trees and the forests? 1423 00:57:46.855 --> 00:57:48.615 What about the moon? What about the 1424 00:57:48.615 --> 00:57:49.895 lifecycle of the butterfly? 1425 00:57:50.275 --> 00:57:52.695 Not just the science, but, uh, the change 1426 00:57:52.695 --> 00:57:54.295 and the growth as concepts 1427 00:57:54.315 --> 00:57:57.175 and how they make us feel, make the freedom at the end. 1428 00:57:57.175 --> 00:57:59.335 And, and what that means. What does freedom feel like? 1429 00:57:59.795 --> 00:58:03.495 Um, maths, symmetry, art, the beauty of the butterfly. 1430 00:58:03.585 --> 00:58:06.295 Creativity and patterns and new beginnings. 1431 00:58:06.315 --> 00:58:09.255 So there's so much, if you look at just that one story, 1432 00:58:09.255 --> 00:58:10.855 there's so much contained in that. 1433 00:58:10.955 --> 00:58:14.215 So we, we just need to begin to, to see it. 1434 00:58:14.875 --> 00:58:16.895 The second thing is stories change us. 1435 00:58:17.815 --> 00:58:21.075 So Sula le Guin quoting William Blake, um, said 1436 00:58:21.425 --> 00:58:25.595 that the windows of our perception are cleansed 1437 00:58:25.595 --> 00:58:26.875 by poetry and stories. 1438 00:58:28.295 --> 00:58:30.395 And then storytelling is a tool for knowing 1439 00:58:30.395 --> 00:58:31.755 who we are and what we want. 1440 00:58:32.295 --> 00:58:34.635 You know, if we think about our lives as stories, 1441 00:58:34.945 --> 00:58:36.355 what, what is the plot? 1442 00:58:36.975 --> 00:58:39.555 Who are the characters? What edits do you need to make? 1443 00:58:39.935 --> 00:58:41.275 Do you need an alternative ending? 1444 00:58:42.325 --> 00:58:44.945 If we, if we view our lives in that way, it's very powerful. 1445 00:58:45.765 --> 00:58:47.145 Um, stories teach us, 1446 00:58:47.365 --> 00:58:49.945 and I, I think this is really key at this point in time. 1447 00:58:50.165 --> 00:58:52.625 If, if you want to know more about certain political 1448 00:58:52.625 --> 00:58:54.225 situations, but you know, you're not gonna make it 1449 00:58:54.225 --> 00:58:55.785 through a long nonfiction book. 1450 00:58:56.535 --> 00:58:57.945 What I would encourage you to do 1451 00:58:58.125 --> 00:59:01.905 and people to do is to find fiction, find historical novels, 1452 00:59:02.015 --> 00:59:04.145 find films about different periods and events, 1453 00:59:04.565 --> 00:59:07.185 and then do the factual research to find out what happened. 1454 00:59:07.725 --> 00:59:10.425 But, you know, inform yourself from different perspectives 1455 00:59:10.725 --> 00:59:12.825 and talk to people about what you're reading and seeing 1456 00:59:12.845 --> 00:59:15.265 and learning what I feel at present 1457 00:59:15.575 --> 00:59:17.225 with the polarization in society 1458 00:59:17.225 --> 00:59:18.865 where we are not having these across the 1459 00:59:18.865 --> 00:59:20.065 aisle conversations anymore. 1460 00:59:20.085 --> 00:59:23.125 And the algorithms con constantly direct us to more 1461 00:59:23.125 --> 00:59:25.725 of the same, more of what we're already thinking. 1462 00:59:26.025 --> 00:59:29.325 And they shore up our already, you know, held opinions. 1463 00:59:29.865 --> 00:59:31.365 The middle ground is disappearing. 1464 00:59:32.105 --> 00:59:33.245 So if you want to be 1465 00:59:33.245 --> 00:59:36.045 and to stay informed, the story work is essential. 1466 00:59:36.045 --> 00:59:38.685 And, you know, just thinking about doing this, this podcast 1467 00:59:38.755 --> 00:59:41.245 with you, I was thinking the other day, you know, in, 1468 00:59:41.425 --> 00:59:43.085 in old fashioned debating teams, 1469 00:59:43.545 --> 00:59:45.925 the debaters would be required to switch sides 1470 00:59:46.465 --> 00:59:49.085 and argue the opposing side just as vehemently 1471 00:59:49.085 --> 00:59:50.965 and convincingly as their initial stance. 1472 00:59:51.785 --> 00:59:54.365 And it's really frightening to witness this current climate 1473 00:59:54.375 --> 00:59:57.125 where students and people, they, they're not robust 1474 00:59:57.145 --> 00:59:59.965 and resilient enough to cross over to the other side 1475 01:00:00.675 --> 01:00:02.405 just in terms of ideas. 1476 01:00:03.185 --> 01:00:05.245 So, you know, people will now say, oh, well, you know, 1477 01:00:05.245 --> 01:00:06.605 that's, that's triggering to them. 1478 01:00:06.745 --> 01:00:09.845 But, you know, crossing over is, is being able 1479 01:00:09.845 --> 01:00:11.725 to understand the story of the other. 1480 01:00:12.155 --> 01:00:13.325 What would that story look like? 1481 01:00:13.355 --> 01:00:15.645 What, what would I feel like or, or do 1482 01:00:15.665 --> 01:00:17.925 or think if, if this happened to me? 1483 01:00:18.105 --> 01:00:21.685 And so that consideration and flexibility and curiosity 1484 01:00:22.225 --> 01:00:25.565 and creativity that comes from being exposed to the stories 1485 01:00:25.565 --> 01:00:28.485 of others and remaining open to the stories of others, um, 1486 01:00:29.265 --> 01:00:31.845 and, you know, remaining open is what combats the sense 1487 01:00:31.845 --> 01:00:35.365 of certainty and militancy that I feel we are, 1488 01:00:35.365 --> 01:00:36.365 we are encountering today. 1489 01:00:36.385 --> 01:00:38.765 And I think one of the reasons that I think a lot 1490 01:00:38.765 --> 01:00:40.165 of people feel hopeless when we, 1491 01:00:40.165 --> 01:00:42.565 when we witness this judgment and absolute certainty 1492 01:00:42.945 --> 01:00:44.245 and this sort of rigidity 1493 01:00:44.245 --> 01:00:46.245 of thought is that it's not hopeful. 1494 01:00:46.865 --> 01:00:49.525 Mm-hmm. So there really isn't any hope in it 1495 01:00:49.525 --> 01:00:52.125 because people have essentially decided what they believe 1496 01:00:52.125 --> 01:00:53.645 and they've closed the case. 1497 01:00:54.625 --> 01:00:56.925 And hope actually allows us to be open. 1498 01:00:57.025 --> 01:00:59.205 It allows us to think and to consider options 1499 01:00:59.265 --> 01:01:02.565 to acknowledge complexity and nuance and to explore 1500 01:01:03.345 --> 01:01:06.765 and hope, you know, it, it, it's, it's creative. 1501 01:01:06.865 --> 01:01:08.565 It looks for ways for things to be better 1502 01:01:08.825 --> 01:01:10.605 and it's solutions focused. 1503 01:01:11.035 --> 01:01:13.005 Yeah. Yeah. No, I really like that, Helen. 1504 01:01:13.265 --> 01:01:16.325 Um, so how do we work with children to get them 1505 01:01:16.325 --> 01:01:17.845 to be open to the stories of others? 1506 01:01:19.035 --> 01:01:21.325 Okay, so this is what I touched on briefly is, 1507 01:01:21.385 --> 01:01:22.645 is teaching children, it's, 1508 01:01:22.645 --> 01:01:24.365 it's a really good question to take. 1509 01:01:24.845 --> 01:01:27.005 Teaching them to take a 360 degree view of a story. 1510 01:01:27.555 --> 01:01:29.845 This is how we combat propaganda 1511 01:01:30.785 --> 01:01:32.965 and the projected realities of other people. 1512 01:01:33.025 --> 01:01:35.405 So what we do, it's, it's really necessary for them 1513 01:01:35.425 --> 01:01:38.445 to have an informed and nuanced view to be able 1514 01:01:38.445 --> 01:01:39.765 to make good decisions. 1515 01:01:40.185 --> 01:01:42.685 And so this involves considering situations from different 1516 01:01:42.685 --> 01:01:43.965 vantage points, as I mentioned. 1517 01:01:44.025 --> 01:01:47.515 So for example, I think I touched on this briefly earlier, 1518 01:01:47.515 --> 01:01:50.355 you know, what did a story look like for the protagonist? 1519 01:01:50.545 --> 01:01:52.035 What does it look like for the antagonist? 1520 01:01:52.385 --> 01:01:54.475 What does it look like to one of the minor characters? 1521 01:01:54.475 --> 01:01:55.915 You know, think about the Christmas story. 1522 01:01:56.165 --> 01:01:57.635 Let's tell the Christmas story from 1523 01:01:57.635 --> 01:01:58.715 the view of the innkeeper. 1524 01:01:59.005 --> 01:02:00.715 Let's tell the Christmas story from the view 1525 01:02:00.715 --> 01:02:02.195 of the wise men or the donkey. 1526 01:02:02.335 --> 01:02:05.235 You know, it's, it's just shifting that, that perspective so 1527 01:02:05.235 --> 01:02:07.635 that they have an opportunity to explore what 1528 01:02:08.155 --> 01:02:09.195 somebody else might feel. 1529 01:02:09.895 --> 01:02:13.995 Um, if we show them that the same story can look different 1530 01:02:13.995 --> 01:02:16.155 to different people, they'll begin 1531 01:02:16.155 --> 01:02:17.555 to develop this critical thinking 1532 01:02:17.555 --> 01:02:20.725 and they'll begin to consider what they're told to ponder 1533 01:02:20.725 --> 01:02:22.285 and to question and, and to 1534 01:02:22.285 --> 01:02:24.885 therefore come to, to more informed conclusions. 1535 01:02:24.945 --> 01:02:28.365 And, you know, in closing, Kate, I I just wanted 1536 01:02:28.385 --> 01:02:30.165 to mention a couple of things that I feel are 1537 01:02:30.165 --> 01:02:32.765 so important sort of on a spiritual level mm-hmm. 1538 01:02:32.785 --> 01:02:34.605 In a recent podcast I was listening to, it's, 1539 01:02:34.605 --> 01:02:38.365 it's such a lovely podcast with the author Kate de Camillo. 1540 01:02:39.065 --> 01:02:41.885 Um, she wrote Desper and, and other wonderful books, 1541 01:02:41.945 --> 01:02:44.965 and she was chatting to Krista Tippett from on being, 1542 01:02:45.785 --> 01:02:50.115 and she said something so profound, she said, 1543 01:02:50.655 --> 01:02:52.835 our job in life is to see and be seen. 1544 01:02:53.815 --> 01:02:56.275 And you touched on this briefly earlier about being, 1545 01:02:56.275 --> 01:02:58.155 you know, when you were talking about being heard. 1546 01:02:58.455 --> 01:03:00.235 And you know, the way that we, 1547 01:03:00.575 --> 01:03:02.315 and this is what I mentioned about the, the evening 1548 01:03:02.315 --> 01:03:05.795 with those friends, um, you know, the way that we are seen 1549 01:03:06.455 --> 01:03:08.555 and, and that we see others is through our stories. 1550 01:03:09.015 --> 01:03:12.315 And children are always, always asking to be seen by us 1551 01:03:12.735 --> 01:03:14.475 and in their storytelling, 1552 01:03:14.475 --> 01:03:16.355 which is done in many, many different ways. 1553 01:03:16.825 --> 01:03:19.395 Essentially what they're asking us is, do you see me? 1554 01:03:20.575 --> 01:03:23.235 And we allow them to be seen by saying, I'm here, 1555 01:03:23.495 --> 01:03:26.355 as we said, and I'm listening, and your story is safe, 1556 01:03:26.375 --> 01:03:28.635 and your story is sacred in this space. 1557 01:03:28.935 --> 01:03:31.315 And it, this has in so beautifully 1558 01:03:31.315 --> 01:03:32.395 what Kate de Camillo said. 1559 01:03:32.415 --> 01:03:35.035 Um, when I was writing the book, I happened 1560 01:03:35.035 --> 01:03:36.955 to just turn on CDS news one day. 1561 01:03:36.955 --> 01:03:38.195 And, and Oprah was talking 1562 01:03:38.855 --> 01:03:40.875 and she was talking about people who had been on their, 1563 01:03:40.875 --> 01:03:42.195 on her show and their behavior. 1564 01:03:42.815 --> 01:03:46.035 And she explained that without fail all 1565 01:03:46.035 --> 01:03:49.115 of her guests from those she considered to be quite ordinary 1566 01:03:49.215 --> 01:03:50.835 to President Obama or Beyonce. 1567 01:03:50.985 --> 01:03:52.555 Once they had finished talking 1568 01:03:52.575 --> 01:03:55.275 and sharing their story, they would turn to her, 1569 01:03:55.385 --> 01:03:58.515 they would turn to her and ask, was that, okay, 1570 01:03:58.945 --> 01:03:59.995 what was I, okay? 1571 01:04:00.775 --> 01:04:03.115 And she said that her takeaway from all her years 1572 01:04:03.115 --> 01:04:05.155 of experience was that all people want 1573 01:04:05.155 --> 01:04:07.395 to know really is, did you hear me? 1574 01:04:08.575 --> 01:04:12.075 Did you see me? And did what I say mattered? 1575 01:04:12.535 --> 01:04:13.865 Yes. Yeah, yeah. 1576 01:04:13.885 --> 01:04:15.825 You know, we, we, we all just wanna be seen. 1577 01:04:15.845 --> 01:04:18.185 And, and, and I'll close with this, you know, we, 1578 01:04:18.205 --> 01:04:21.225 we have a moral imperative to see the stories of others 1579 01:04:21.805 --> 01:04:24.385 and to model this curiosity to the children in our care. 1580 01:04:24.405 --> 01:04:25.985 And, and we have a responsibility 1581 01:04:26.045 --> 01:04:28.745 to reflect on our own stories in terms of the level 1582 01:04:28.745 --> 01:04:32.305 of truth contained within them, uh, being brave enough 1583 01:04:32.365 --> 01:04:35.345 to own them and tell them e even the ugly 1584 01:04:35.405 --> 01:04:36.465 and the painful parts. 1585 01:04:37.285 --> 01:04:40.345 And I, I really feel Kate, like presently, the stakes are 1586 01:04:40.445 --> 01:04:43.905 so high because really the opposite of hope is fear. 1587 01:04:44.005 --> 01:04:46.465 And, and the world these days can feel very frightening. 1588 01:04:46.465 --> 01:04:48.065 And this leads to increased levels 1589 01:04:48.125 --> 01:04:49.905 of insecurity and anxiety. 1590 01:04:50.125 --> 01:04:52.945 So we need to hope, we need 1591 01:04:52.945 --> 01:04:54.465 to teach our children how to hope. 1592 01:04:54.965 --> 01:04:56.705 And this is fostered through connection 1593 01:04:56.805 --> 01:04:58.545 and through comfort, through conversation, 1594 01:04:59.055 --> 01:05:00.225 through imagination. 1595 01:05:01.005 --> 01:05:03.185 And, and this is where healing begins, 1596 01:05:03.685 --> 01:05:04.945 and this is where peace is found. 1597 01:05:05.695 --> 01:05:07.505 Yeah. No, that's brilliant. 1598 01:05:07.505 --> 01:05:09.745 That's a really good message to leave people on too, Helen. 1599 01:05:10.185 --> 01:05:12.705 I think it, I think, and I think we're in a very privileged 1600 01:05:12.945 --> 01:05:16.065 position in that we are getting to work with young children 1601 01:05:16.605 --> 01:05:19.445 to, to form that story for them, like, 1602 01:05:19.465 --> 01:05:20.645 and to make that difference. 1603 01:05:20.985 --> 01:05:23.565 And I think it, it is worth taking into consideration all 1604 01:05:23.565 --> 01:05:25.525 the things that have been said today and thinking about 1605 01:05:25.525 --> 01:05:27.325 how we can bring that into play and what we're doing. 1606 01:05:27.945 --> 01:05:30.085 So, so yeah. Yeah. Thank, thank you. 1607 01:05:30.985 --> 01:05:32.645 You're welcome. Yeah. Lovely 1608 01:05:32.645 --> 01:05:33.645 To be here. 1609 01:05:34.745 --> 01:05:35.965 No, it's been great, Helen. 1610 01:05:36.035 --> 01:05:38.365 Like it is been such a joy, like getting to chat 1611 01:05:38.365 --> 01:05:39.565 with you, so, yeah. 1612 01:05:39.915 --> 01:05:41.365 Yeah. And I think, I think there's a lot 1613 01:05:41.365 --> 01:05:42.885 that people are gonna take away from today. 1614 01:05:43.265 --> 01:05:46.725 Um, so just before we go, Helen, um, I've seen your book 1615 01:05:46.725 --> 01:05:47.845 and I think it's just beautiful. 1616 01:05:48.465 --> 01:05:50.565 So I'd just like to give a little shout out so 1617 01:05:50.565 --> 01:05:52.165 that people know that this book is out there. 1618 01:05:52.785 --> 01:05:55.405 Um, but if I bring the book up, do you want 1619 01:05:55.405 --> 01:05:56.565 to just read a couple of pages, 1620 01:05:56.565 --> 01:05:58.445 because I just think it'd be lovely for people 1621 01:05:58.445 --> 01:05:59.685 to see what you've been working on. 1622 01:06:00.265 --> 01:06:02.765 Um, sure. Okay. Can you see that now? 1623 01:06:03.925 --> 01:06:05.145 Yep. Yeah. Lovely. 1624 01:06:05.285 --> 01:06:07.585 So if I flick through, do you want to read a few pages 1625 01:06:08.165 --> 01:06:10.025 and just kind of say a little bit about the thoughts 1626 01:06:10.025 --> 01:06:11.585 behind this book and why you've created it? 1627 01:06:13.755 --> 01:06:17.335 So, um, this, this book I was written by me 1628 01:06:17.355 --> 01:06:20.615 and, um, I worked with a lovely artist called Jose Fragoso, 1629 01:06:20.615 --> 01:06:22.095 who's based in Spain in Madrid. 1630 01:06:22.475 --> 01:06:25.175 Um, and he's, he's a wonderful illustrator. 1631 01:06:25.475 --> 01:06:27.415 And, um, yes, so I wrote it 1632 01:06:27.415 --> 01:06:29.535 because, you know, as we were saying, 1633 01:06:29.595 --> 01:06:32.775 I'm really passionate about the voices of children. 1634 01:06:32.935 --> 01:06:34.215 I mean the voices of people really. 1635 01:06:34.235 --> 01:06:37.855 And I think throughout life, our, our lives throughout life, 1636 01:06:37.885 --> 01:06:42.215 from the time that we are born, um, oftentimes, you know, 1637 01:06:42.315 --> 01:06:46.895 our, our voices are, are silenced, uh, in different ways, 1638 01:06:47.595 --> 01:06:50.935 uh, due to, you know, the societies we grew up in, 1639 01:06:50.935 --> 01:06:52.975 the families we grew up in, the, you know, 1640 01:06:52.975 --> 01:06:54.895 different circumstances and situations. 1641 01:06:55.155 --> 01:06:58.455 And I'm really passionate about children being able 1642 01:06:58.455 --> 01:07:00.855 to raise their voice, uh, to understand 1643 01:07:00.855 --> 01:07:02.775 that their voice is unique, that it matters. 1644 01:07:03.315 --> 01:07:06.775 And that's really what's, what's behind this book. Yeah. 1645 01:07:06.775 --> 01:07:10.495 Lovely. Yeah. If I flick through, um, yeah, do you want 1646 01:07:10.495 --> 01:07:11.775 to just read a few pages, Helen? 1647 01:07:11.965 --> 01:07:15.255 Sure. So I will speak of things big and things small. 1648 01:07:18.445 --> 01:07:21.005 I will use my words or say nothing at all. 1649 01:07:23.075 --> 01:07:25.555 I will speak to say yes, I will speak to say no, 1650 01:07:26.195 --> 01:07:27.355 I will speak to say stop. 1651 01:07:27.795 --> 01:07:32.515 I will speak to say go. I will speak when I'm scared. 1652 01:07:32.835 --> 01:07:33.955 I will speak when I'm shy. 1653 01:07:34.355 --> 01:07:36.835 I will speak when I feel not to let things pass by. 1654 01:07:39.035 --> 01:07:41.355 I will speak up when people appear big and strong. 1655 01:07:42.035 --> 01:07:44.235 I will speak up for those who feel they don't belong. 1656 01:07:44.705 --> 01:07:45.915 Yeah. So it kind 1657 01:07:45.915 --> 01:07:47.875 of gives feel just a little bit of a gist of what's in there. 1658 01:07:47.975 --> 01:07:50.595 But, but yeah, it's, it's beautifully written, Ellen. 1659 01:07:50.665 --> 01:07:52.515 It's really lovely book. So, so yeah. 1660 01:07:52.975 --> 01:07:55.075 And when is, is the book gonna be out for people to buy? 1661 01:07:55.535 --> 01:07:57.715 So we're working on it being published at the moment, 1662 01:07:57.935 --> 01:08:00.955 so I'll, we'll have to watch the space. Mm-hmm. 1663 01:08:01.035 --> 01:08:02.755 Yeah. And we'll put out, we'll put it on social media 1664 01:08:02.755 --> 01:08:03.875 when it's out there ready to go. 1665 01:08:04.095 --> 01:08:06.715 So yeah. Thank you. Lovely. Thanks Kate. 1666 01:08:07.105 --> 01:08:08.515 Yeah, thanks a lot there, Helen.