Super excited to have Jenny Mosley here today. Um, right back at the start in 2015, I was asked to speak at a conference and Jenny was actually in the audience. So big case of nerves for me. Um, but I've got to say she was the best person to have in the audience when you're creating a group story. Um, right from the start of my teaching career, Jenny has been a big name and she shares our passion for stories, creativity and positive relationships at the heart of everything. So I'm really pleased you're all gonna hear us speak today. Jenny is a national and international consultant and has decades of experience working with schools. She's trained all over the world, including New Zealand, Australia, India, Japan. The list goes on, and she's author of many, many books. Lots of you will have heard of her Golden Model Approach and Circle Time activities which promote staff and pupil wellbeing and respectful relationships. And Jenny talks a lot about creating this safe learning environment where children and adults feel valued and heard. Jenny has been featured lots of times in the press over the years. She's been on the BBC, and she's collaborated and worked with lots of names that you'll recognize. And more recently she's created online resources aimed at boosting wellbeing that are well worth checking out, but less from me. I'm sure you are all very keen to hear from Jenny. So let's get started. Um, um, but yeah, really excited to be here with Jenny today and so happy that we've managed to set this up and get to chat with you. Um, and we're big fans of your work. Um, but yeah. So let's kick off 'cause I know people are really keen to hear from Jenny and not me. Um, so I'd kind of love to just hear about your journey, like what kind of led you to do in the work that you do now. Wow. Um, very long time ago I was in, um, when I went to Clapham Junction, I was working in a, a, a big sort of special needs and, well, it was actually for children with emotional behavioral difficulties. That was the main, uh, thrust of it. Mm-hmm. Um, so that was in 72. And, um, it was really hard. It was, it was just the kids suffered from all sorts of deprivation and, um, all sorts of adversity. The parents went a state, it was a really tough time. And, uh, we were getting very run down and we got a new head and he looked at us and he's, we looked haggard and we were only young. And he said, um, I think what we're gonna do. He said, I think we'll have a circle time. Um, I've never heard of it. I don't know what a circle time was. He said, no, I think we'll have a circle time. He said, with a psychiatrist, um, he said for the staff, and I couldn't believe it for the staff. So he, he organized it with the governors that the kids would go home early on a Friday. So every Friday we'd have this. A very good facilitator Yes. Who we'd actually, we'd sit in the circle mm-hmm. And, um, it, we would actually be out asked to bring the issues. And I remember the first issue that I ever bought, which I was really, uh, really anxious about, really embarrassed. And I just said, look, um, I need help because I have a child in my class and I don't like him. And it was such a huge thing to say that you didn't like a child. Um, and it, it, it, it was because we'd been together so long, people didn't glance at each other. They didn't talk behind or whisper about me. They just accepted it. And other people said, would it help to know, you know, that I, I've sometimes felt this way. And I said, well, I don't know. Yes. You know, it was wonderful to hear people say that, but I needed some help as well. Yes. And so they gave, they came up with lots of ideas. Like one woman said, would it help to know that actually he is motivated by working with younger children? Now, I had no idea that actually being with younger children, um, would, uh, was was a reward or an incentive. Mm-hmm. And it was, he used to go to the nursery. Yes. Um, and actually I'm not, he wasn't actually helping. He was just, just having a time that he needed for him. Yes. Um, so that was really helpful to have something, because anything, only time I admired something, he'd kick it down. Or if a a piece of paper put up, he'd just rip it up. Yes. So this was very interesting. And then somebody said, would it help to know about his grandmother? Now, I didn't know that about his grandmother. And it's interesting how communication means so much in schools because a lot of midday supervisors I work with will say to me that they're not passed on enough information. Mm-hmm. Um, that everyone's so busy, they, they're not told things. Yes. And it's important, you don't have to say to midday that, um, you know, the mother and father have broken up, but just that this child is very fragile at the moment and needs, you need to keep an eye on him. It's that communication which keeps everything going. Mm-hmm. So I, I suddenly was in this world of very good communication and kindness. Nobody moaning behind anyone's backs. We were all in this together. Yes. And it made me realize, gosh, if, if I can go home on a Friday, leave my worries in that circle. Yes. I must had more of a life. Mm-hmm. At weekends, it wasn't there all the time. And because I had felt it mm-hmm. So strongly, I thought, imagine what happens if children feel it, if they feel heard and listened to and they feel part of mm-hmm. A circle. And nothing's changed in all these years. There was a big, um, symposium, uh, a big conference, international conference in Athens last year Yes. On what would help young people with mental health problems, which are so huge at the moment. Yeah. And of all the different interventions, the the one thing that helps children, young people more than anything is to strengthen peer relationships. Yeah. So strengthening the peer relationships is key. Yeah. So, you know, people can say, oh, well, it's, it's old, it's old hat. That's nonsense circle. It's not old hat. It absolutely needs reviving. It needs, it needs, um, vibrancy attached to it. It needs the safety attached to it. And never, never post covid. Has it been more important to, to get this back on again? So if I hadn't had that experience myself, I don't think I would have, um, I, I would've gone the trajectory that I went in my career, but it's a very patchwork quilt of a career. I did lots of other things, career, because I've, I'm very interested in things. And so, um, I've done other things that all melded together to make it more important. But my best schools, I have schools who I give a gold award to, who work hard on all aspects of an ecosystem model. My very best schools do have circle time for the adults. Um, uh, and it's, if you were in NHS or social work, you'd have supervision and supervision in a very good sense. A sense of how can I be the best I can be? Not what targets you've got to meet. So it's not, it's still misunderstood. It is still seen as something for early as children. Yeah. It's not seen as something that needs to go through to secondary or to the adults. So basically, I'm not sure I've managed to change anything. There you go. Been away. So, yeah, it's really interesting actually saying that because, um, I used to work with the children's centers in Tower Hamlets and, um, I went from working in a school, um, with a class, um, to then being like kind of looking after play for like a section of the borough and working with the children's centers. And it was such good practice. It was just amazing because we used to have monthly meetings where we would go and it would be the local doctor, um, the team around the child, kind of like in terms of like your social workers, like your speech and language therapists, like the people that were actually working on the ground with them in the children's centers and the play sessions. And we would all get together and we would talk about what was going on for that child and, and what was the story and what was the information that would, would be shared that would help all of us. And and it was interesting because there was such a huge chunk of our children that there were these big issues for, and things going on and stuff happened with families, and those are the exact same children that I'd been teaching in school. And I was like, if 80% of these parents and these families have got these things going on, and then 80% of that class would've had those issues, but those teachers don't know it. Like, there's all this stuff that was happening for those children, uh, and those families that just doesn't, doesn't reach schools in the same way. I don't think so. Yeah. I think there's a lot going on for families and children and that Yeah. I mean, It's, it's, the team around the child has been, uh, you know, started the whole idea was, was the Warnock report and that, and, and, and people were going to work on that and they never did work on it. Yeah. And then it's come back again and again. And it is, there is no other way that you can work other than the team around the child to, to really make a difference. But it's just political. There isn't enough money. There's no time. I, there's lots of schools now who have no, um, home liaison workers or even bringing who, who, who, who even be able to tell the teachers anything that's going on. So it's, it's, and, and yet we've got the huge rise of mental health for adults and for children. So what, what you experienced in Tower Hamlets, I mean, tower Hamlets had some very good things going at one stage. And, and where I was, it was, it was called in London then Ilia it was called. And, um, there was lots more money around and time, and those were in the air. Those were in the days pre-social media when everything was much easier. So goodness, whenever, you know, the things that we are talking about supervision Yes. Um, uh, people sharing knowledge, I think is the most important thing. And putting the heart, the child at the heart of everything, um, that's just not happening anymore. No, it's not. No, it's not. And it's really important, like you were said, with rise in mental health issues and mm-hmm. Like all of the issues after Covid and stuff, it's more important now than ever in a way. Yeah. But, but yeah, no, it is, it really needs to happen, doesn't it? I Mean, there are some schools doing lovely. I mean, there always, all across England, there are absolute fabulous people. Unsung here is just doing everything and they're wonderful. But there are some schools who've started, um, I, I can't remember which charity was started it, but it was, I can find out. But there's a school in Sheffield and, um, it had, it's got, it's led by parents for parents, and it's very much sort of based on a circle approach. So the parents are trained how to work with, um, other parents and, um, they, they can bring some of the support. And I think that's actually more important than anything because, um, some of the best circle times I've done has been with parents who are in all in the same situation together, but they've never been together Yes. In a group. Yes. And actually the ones who know all the information, which are the good, so, you know, which are the good avenues to get some grants, which are the good avenues to do this. Yes. They, they, they all support each other, so mm-hmm. You know, samples of, uh, people with similar interests or, or needs or whatever are just absolutely essential, but it doesn't happen. Circle times for parents really doesn't happen. Yeah. Keeping that kind of landscape in mind. Um, and kind of thinking about what you're saying about adults, and I know I was listening to another one of your talks and you were saying that you kind of can't do anything for the children if you're not looking after yourself first. Yeah. Like mental health of teachers too is huge, I think. Yeah. And the workload on them and the stuff that they have to do and the way that they feel right now, it's, it's tough teaching. It's tough. But what's kind of your advice, like in that area? What would, what would your thoughts be on that to schools? I mean, it's, it, you've got to spend time. Yeah. Um, everyone is doing lots of different things and they sort of say, well, let's go and do some, um, mindfulness, or let's go do some massage, or let's go and do something. And people are tasting lots of different things. And, but actually you've, you've actually got to, if you've signed up to be in a school, you've signed up to be in a good mood with children. Right. That's, that's your job. That's in the, that's in the contract. Mm-hmm. So you've, you, you, you have a duty. It's not just an extra added extra that's gonna make me happy. You actually have a duty to to, to look after yourself. Mm-hmm. The school needs to help with that. And again, the schools I admire most other schools where, um, uh, gosh, I always get go on this word. Um, when you, you know, when you do work things and you have to check it, uh, you have to work, you have to go through all your targets and they tell you about it. What's that? Oh, well, you have like professional development meetings. Yeah. It's a professional development. It's beginning with a and appraisal, gosh, okay. When you have appraisal. Yes. Um, actually seems to fade away in some schools and hasn't been around for ages. Mm-hmm. All, um, that I really love. They appraise that the, uh, teachers on their own personal, um, care plan and what they're doing for themselves as well as what they're, as what work issues are happening. So it, it's seen they've given, they've given them the tools. I mean, I've done, I've made mental health webinars. I've been doing mental health for years and years. And, um, there, there are things that you can do that are, well, you know, there's, there's things, there's five wells for wellbeing. It's, it's all in a mental health webinar, but you actually do need to make a care plan for yourself. Mm-hmm. And you do need someone who cares whether you're keeping to it or not. Now, you could have, you know, you need a, a mentor in an ideal world. Mm-hmm. Uh, staff should have a staff mentor and equally help each other. Or you can do it, um, in small circles and say how I'm doing. Mm-hmm. But I think it's about it, it's about saying, this is part of your job is, uh, is to make sure you put time into creating these, um, a mental health care plan, literally for yourself. It is not just mental health. It's actually, it's getting the balance in your life. It's, it's spiritual health. It's creative health, it's emotional health, it's physical health. It's getting all of those balanced into your life. Yes. Um, and, but it's conscious. It's written up. You have to take, and you need someone to care. You need someone to know. It's great in a school if somebody was actually saying, how's it going? So we have staff meetings where we'll say, um, I'm pleased with myself this week because I manage this and we, we'll use the eggs to go round, or one thing I'm gonna do for myself next week. So you keep it on the agenda. If you have a round, uh, with an egg, it's only one, it only takes two minutes, but it puts the thing right back up on the agenda again because you've heard it. It's you. And you start your next staff meeting and you say, how did it go last week? So we have the egg back and we say, no, I let myself down. I didn't do it, but yes, I did do it. And yes, I did. So it's, it's about keeping it high. And the only way you can do that for me is that just one of the, um, things of circle time. It's just the round, the round with the egg. It's, it's a reflection on experience and it, it brings everything up to the fore again. Yes. Yeah. No, that's really important. And I think, like you said, it's just giving it importance and giving it support and making it a real kind of push for everybody. 'cause often I think there is just little nods given to stuff, and then it's like back to the back to back to the SATs, back to Ofsted, back to, so, yeah. Yeah. I think that is, that's really key to say. But yeah. Um, in terms of the children, I know one of your kind of big, um, loves is, um, in terms of listening to children and our byline is that everybody has a story. So, um, like what we do is all about giving children a space to tell their story and giving them the tools to do that. Um, in terms of your work, can you talk through like the importance of listening to children and what teachers can do to support this? Hmm. It, it, it's, it is, we're back to the whole thing. How can you listen to others if you're not looking after yourself? Because you almost don't want to hear anymore. You, you can't take anymore and your head's full of everything. So until we get the teachers, I mean, never have teachers had more, uh, pressure or stress with or surrounded by parents pressure and stress. Mm-hmm. It's too much in schools, I think now, and what children most need is the one that's the hardest to give, which is to, uh, let go of your own ego and really listen to children. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and really pick up what they're not saying and pick up their body language and pick up their, uh, all the signs now that, that, that, that takes somebody who's grounded and has actually topped up their own wells and, and, and wants to draw out who wants to draw out more if you are actually just surviving. Yes. And that's what teachers are doing, but it's too much. There's too much to do at the moment. It's just how it is post covid. And, um, it's, but what children most need is listening. Um, so yes, this, this for me, you embed listening systems. Um, circle time is one listening system what you are teaching, and it's, it's for you really. It's the best one for, for teachers because it's group listening. So you are teaching children how to listen to other children. So you are teaching children to, um, support each other. So you're teaching children to say, well, would it help to try this? Would you to be solution focused? You are teaching children to have to make up fun stories together just to rise above the everyday difficulties and have some fun and some magic and within that circle. Um, but I fairly recently post Covid, I was doing a circle time in a, in a very, very complex, um, unhappy area for, uh, for children. And the children were, um, they just rose to it. They just hadn't been listened to for ages. And they were really giving it their all, they were extraordinarily wonderful. And then I always ask teachers to observe, because, you know, to sit outside a circle and not speak for an hour is very good for teachers. Yes. Because they, they're not, they can't say yes, but so secondary teachers, I, I would never take, put any work in there unless they sit around that circle and listen to their children for an hour. Um, but, um, anyway, so the circle was very good. And, um, and then afterwards, um, that I, I was talking to their teacher and she was crying and I, I said, you know what, what is it? And she said she'd never seen them like that. She didn't know it was possible for children to think like that. She didn't know it was possible that they were able to engage and support each other like that. Mm-hmm. And then it turns out this poor younger, I mean, she's only just fresh out. She's a probationer and she's had, she'd done all her training online. Wow. So she hadn't even been in schools. Wow. You know, it's, it's, it's how the training had been. And she was feeling so out of her depth, they'd given her one of the most difficult classes, most complex. And she needed, she was really in a, you know, needed some support and mentoring and, and, and, um, uh, love actually. And then I went out into the playground having, 'cause I always have to go in the playground to see how good a school is. And, um, the little girl, one little girl came up to me from her class, and she's really unkempt, you know, really greasy hair, just, just unkempt and sad looking. And she just, oh, she's, her face was a light. Oh. She's like, I did love your circle time. I thought, oh, thank you. She said, yeah. She said, because it felt like you'd given me a family. Family. Oh. Oh. I thought, I'm gonna try now. Oh, bless her. And it felt like you'd given a family. And there's something true about that. If you are, I used to teach on a master's and mm-hmm. People action research. And what happens is if you have a circle that you go to where you are treated with deep respect, where nobody puts you down. Mm-hmm. You're having reinforced your self image, it's, we have what we call significant others, which would be Carl Rogers psychology. But if a group behaves in a positive, warm way, the whole group, it's called a generalized other. So that mirror is reflecting back to that child, you are interesting. We like you, you are part of the group. And you can build your self esteem through a very well handled group. It's not just only parents or individuals that can actually build up a child's, um, self, uh, you know, resilience and self-esteem. So she is right. She touched it when she said, you gave me a family, you can make a family. Um, and it is a place place where teachers can actually themselves. It doesn't exhaust them. It gives them something back. And one of the worst things that's missing at the moment is laughter and fun, because everyone's becoming like, gotta, gotta cope, gotta face, got no time for that. Got no time. And it's the one thing they all need to be doing is to be laughing and having some fun, because it makes everything worthwhile then. But they're really not Well, they're not. No. Well, it's one of the things we hear actually more often with tell's toolkit is that the teachers will say, I feel like the children have really got to know my sense of humor. Intel's toolkit lessons that like, when we do a story together, that I'm being silly and having fun with them and there's no planning. And we just go with the flow and we're doing stuff together. And they say, for me, I feel like that necessarily isn't, necess isn't coming across in some of the other things they have to do, but, but that's what they enjoy about it. So, so actually in some of these sessions, like your circle times that you're doing that often that's reflecting back on the teacher too. That they're feeling that they're part of that family. So yeah. That's lovely. Yes. That's nice. They're part of that. So that's one, that's one listening system, which is your group listening system. And then, but one of the issues of circle time is that one of the, you, you need emotionally safe circle times. There can be some very dodgy circle times. Um, and there were in the sixties and seventies and for, they, they, uh, there was nothing, no methods of safety to make sure it didn't go too deep or that people's reputations were kept safe or anything like that. So now you have, I won't go into it now, but very strict, um, uh, uh, very strict guidelines when you're doing it. So one of the most important things in circle time, the most important ground rule to keep it safe is that no child may mention anyone's name in a negative way. So this means that they cannot denounce another child in the class. They can't say anything about their parents. It's a way of keeping it safe. Um, so they're learning not to get, to stick with the issues and not to get personal about things. But that goes against what a school's behavior policy is because, uh, bullying, anti-bullying policy, 'cause we need to know that children can take difficult issues to their adults in the school. So you need to set up another listening system at the same time, A circle time, which I always call bubble time, because the idea is that bubble time you re it is really lovely, relaxed, but focused listening on another person. So if I'm working with very young children, our blow a beautiful bubble, and we all look at the bubble and we are looking up and I say, imagine if you and I are in that bubble, and I'm listening to you, you're listening to me. We're having a beautiful listening time. And then in front of all the other children, I pop it and I say, now, children, that's what happens when you interrupt people. You pop the bubble of beautiful listening. So if you want bubble time with your teacher or me, then you would leave that person in that bubble. You carry on for a little while, whatever you are doing. So I just try and get them to have a respect that when people are in the bubble, they actually have a real bubble. It's like a, you know, a bubble that's made you put it on a stick or put it on a put it up behind you so the children know you're in the bubble. But the thing that keeps it safe is you only have a one minute sand timer or a two minute sand timer. So we know how long they've got to wait. The children know how long they've got with you. Because one of the worst things you can do for children is to make it look as though you've got all the time in the world and they're opening up. Um, and then in circle, in bubble time, I say to them, don't forget, if you ever tell me anything that worries me, I may have to take it further. So if you tell me anything worries me, I will have to go further. So I, I, I'm, I don't let them ever think it's confidential, because it's not, teachers need to work, you know, in tandem with everyone else. So that would be a bubble listening. But I also, I can ask for bubble time. So I say children, you know, if I'm upset. So I need a little word with you. I've got my one minute. I was just very disappointed that yesterday that happened. Can you explain why it happened? So I can be disappointed, or I can say sorry if I've been a pain, the children when I need to say sorry, I, I shouted at them both at the same time. It was just 'cause I can be bothered. So I said, I'm sorry, sorry, I did that. So you have a little bridge back, so it's your bubble time. Mm-hmm. But there are children who, um, you know, don't feel good with eye contact. They don't feel good in a circle yet. They're, they're, they're very anxious. Um, and they, we can have something called a think book or a think box. Okay. And it's, it's confidential between them and their teacher. They can keep it in a safe place. They can draw their feelings. I mean, professor Lavers did fabulous work. I dunno if you know him with box of feelings with early years, um, to, to let children communicate non-verbally. So he did lovely work. Mine's much simpler than his. Um, just in that, you know, you can just go through some opposite emotions, like sad, happy, excited, frightened. And then you could have a little sticker. They just pull a sticker off and they could put their name on and put it in. Which means if they put a little circle, it means please talk to me. If it's, if it's no circle, um, then it just means please know this. Just know this is how I'm feeling. So that, you know, and you can do it as a book or you can do it as a box where they pop a little thing in. Um, and older children who don't understand things on the news or whatever, they're not, they don't, um, uh, they don't want to admit, they don't understand what's going on. They'll write a note about what's going on in the news and into the think box and say, can you put that in circle time miss? Or if they've got pressure from say other, other, the older ones have got pressure to smoke or something from their sibling, from their peers, they'll put, how do I deal with that? How do I deal with it and not lose my friends? So difficult issues will go into the box and you might actually mean that you do a little role play, completely made up role play, or you find a good poem that might stimulate a good discussion or you, you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And that's some of these children with these big difficult issues that they wanna talk about. It's, it's not something you can bring up as a group. Like even as an adult. I Can't hear you there, Kate. I said even as an adult, like some of the, we've got lots of issues we wouldn't wanna bring up in a group. No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Yeah. No, there's a lot of things like that. Um, so in terms of kind of like, I know one of the other things that's like a big issue that you are an advocate of, and I know we spoke about this before. I'd love to hear your thoughts on play because I think it's such a massive opportunity for listening to children and also to staff to enjoy playing with children. Um, and just kinda like what your thoughts are on that. And also you've obviously visited settings across the UK and the world, like maybe how you've seen play differ or some of the good examples of what's gone on. So just yeah, I'd love to kind of hear your thoughts on play. Yeah, It, it, I mean it's, it's fundamental to mental health is to play. Um, it's absolutely the research. It's, we can say these things glibly and talk about it, but actually there's bags of research behind everything that we're saying that you can. Um, and about the importance of play and play has got to become forefront. Now. It's got to go right to the front because the one time that you can actually help with mental health, when a child's playing a game and laughing, they're not thinking Mom's crossed with dad. They're not thinking, I haven't got a friend. They're in the moment. And that's called a mental health respite. It means you are not, um, clogged with it. So every time you are playing, you are in the moment and you have after play it some time before the voices come back in your head. So a definition of mental health is this. You've got these clacking voices. I haven't done this, I'm crossed with this that teacher's crossed with me. There's too many voices and it just exhausts you. Um, but when you play, you are, you've gone into a different level. So it's, it's really important for mental health and lot of, a lot of, um, I mean I've just been working in Dublin last week and they talk about playful learning at last. Mm-hmm. Every people are talking about playful learning. Maybe we actually, it's not just a play our thing. Maybe you can put into our learning and have fun. Um, but for adults to play, they need to be playful themselves. And that takes a lightness of being that still only comes if you're looking after yourself. If you're heavy with your own clacking voices in your head. I haven't done this and I'm fed up with my TA is not getting on with me, or whatever it is. It's how do they play? How can they be light, um, and play? So one is that you do need to look after yourself, so you've got some energy to do it. But the joy is that actually, I mean, in, in circle time you teach children to play because you, there are always games in circle time. So you are teaching them about turn taking because since Covid, all the social skills have gone that they don't know about turn taking, that they're very, some of them are very egocentric. They don't even realize any child next to them. Um, they're in a sort of state of being. Um, so you teach that in circle times. You're teaching how, how games work and sometimes we win, sometimes we lose and um, we have fun together and we laugh and it's all right to laugh. Um, so that's a good place to start for, for, for games. Um, but I have, um, uh, a really strong, um, and always have done that you need to pepper, literally pepper spice up your teaching with little games and activities. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I'm, I'm very clear that which, what skills I'm using in, um, in the games that I'm doing, what are the skills? And you need these skills. You are having games. You need these skills to learn. You need these skills to make relationships with. So it's a, it's a matter of saying when you've been playing and what, what skills were you using just now? And these are skills you're gonna use now in the next bit of lesson I'm going to do for you. Um, so you sort of spice it all up with tiny little peppery games, but you make sure that after each you say, what skills were you using just now? And that's really important. So that, that play across, I mean, it's play is fascinating. A, a wonderful couple, a middle aged couple called Mr. And Mrs. Opi, OPIE, I wish I could remember their first names. Um, they spent, I think, I dunno what was it, fifties or sixties, uh, that they went around the whole of the country, Scotland Island Wales, and um, English. And they collected all sorts of traditional games into two huge volumes that went into every library in England because it, they were endorsed. Um, and whether they've, I mean they've got dusty and old and whether they've been, um, reissued, I don't know, it's folk folklore or whatever. And they just collected. So the, and, but when I go to other countries, um, whereas for example, a tiny game that we play that was so good for our brain was jacks. Do you remember you used to throw, I dunno if you remember jacks, we'd throw up a ball and then catch the little metal things. Do you remember those? Ca like little things like that, like little tiny, really good game. But in, in, um, when I was working, um, in the Arab Emirates, um, it wasn't called Jacks, it's called Five Stones. 'cause they would use stones from the, um, desert and they'd play it that way. So there's all sorts of, um, it's clapping. They'll have the same clapping games, but um, with different themes. So in Scotland it'll be about Mary Queen of Scots and, but in some other area it'll be another different type of one that they do. So this this rich, rich thing. Every area really should be collecting their games. Um, I mean I was very lucky I was in Belfast and they had a, went into the county hall and they had a collection of all their street games from sort of post-war and lovely old footage and the, um, of these games. And I thought actually every area should be collecting their own games. And when these old people go, we are not going to know unless we go. So one of my richest sources is to go to take children into older people's homes. Um, and they're the ones who know if I go say to people, do you know, 'cause they orange isn't then once everyone sings it, but then they dunno how it ends. They dunno, how does that end? Why, why does, um, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's in different places. It for different areas. They, they, they, they chuck them over with and they go on off to prison. You will go, we don't do that in another area. But it's only old people who tell you the endings of these things. They remember it because their long term memory comes back. Their short term memory, you know, what they had for breakfast is hard, long term memory. Fabulous with games because when they played those games, they were happy. And you, you crystallize that happiness and all of the endorphins that you felt when they sing it again with children, they get the same endorphins they felt when they were young come back. So memory releases the same endorphins that were sort of, um, yeah, the, the the, the game evoked. So it's so children going to older people is really important. Um, and, um, collecting games from your area as part of your Victorian project or whatever is really important. Um, and using games throughout the whole of your day, peppering, I call it, is really important. Um, then you have your big games. You know, in my happy world, um, I would have teachers teach the same playground games and so that when the children go out at lunchtime and we'd bring them midday in first with the teachers to teach. So they know the games children can always have somewhere to play. So no one's ever lonely. They'll know that game. All ages can play together. So that's, you know, the classic ones are really important as well as the new ones. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. And old people are such a, a big resource. They're great resource. Yeah. They know children feel fabulous because they light up for children. They see a child, they light up. Yeah. I think Tara Ham did do some very good work on this, didn't it? Um, of, of bringing to, um, nurseries and I actually, Let's talk about nurseries Built the nursery next to the older people's home. Who is that? I know there's one just opened near my parents in Chester. Um, and I think there's quite a few now where they, where they have the nursery and the old people's home on the same site. Yes. I mean, that's just wonderful. It's such a, I mean, For the teachers too, to have extra adults around it are engaging with children and Yes. I just think for everybody, it's just such a winner. So Yeah. Yeah. I mean they, the older ones love it too though. They don't wanna be left out. So your year sixes love going and they, they love chatting and they love, they, you know, then they love that sending their little letters to them and then they love coming, doing circle time with them. So it's, it's for all children really as well. Yeah. That's it. It's true. Um, I just wanted to touch on puppets because, um, Intel's talk stories, we use a lot of puppets, so obviously you've got your characters and your props and things that come out. But also we use anything as a puppet. So this, we can make a pen come to life and move and dance and do things. But I just wondered if you could chat about the power of puppets and how to bring things to life and what the best ways are to do that. Because I think some staff struggle more than others with doing that and making things talk and, but yeah. What your, what your suggestions and, and Tips. I, I think, I mean it's, it's all to do with confidence really. Because it's, it's a big thing to put something on your, on your hand and believe in it yourself, but then you have to, to do it with the children to believe in that, that interaction at that moment. Um, I, there's a person, I dunno if you've come across her, I absolutely adore her work on puppets. Mm-hmm. Um, and I use her for, if, if, if anyone's interested, I will ask her to come and do a workshop. Um, because she's, she works particularly with, well, she works with all puppets, but it, she, and she is actually from, she was Tower Hamlet or someone else. Have you, have you come across Georgia Thorpe's work at th name, but she, she's extraordinary. And I have published her books, um, on the power of puppets actually. Yes. And, and hers, she does them all in all different ways. But what I really loved is that she has the courage to go into secondary and use puppets and, um, so for PSHE and she has the big puppets and they have problems and issues and the children advise these huge puppets that sit on her lap, you know, the ones with the hands in. But, um, and I said, well, how's it going Georgia? And she said, well, I think it must be going quite well. She said, because Year eight went to school council to complain they hadn't got puppets in their PS H mm-hmm. Which I thought was wonderful because no one had expected they would be furious, they didn't have puppets. Um, but that's just a one, a one-off thing I'm saying. So I think, um, all children, why they love them is if that person loves them. If you're slightly awkward with it, the children will pick up on that awkwardness. Um, I think there's a lot needed Kate on doing workshops for teachers playing with puppets. Yeah. I mean Georgia does them, I'm sure. Do, do you do them get playing with puppets and with your workshops? In terms of our training, there's lots of, so when they do the training, they have to have a go at telling stories and doing things together as a group together, the teachers. Mm-hmm. So there's lots of practice of moving things and um, when I've done little bits of training in person, I've done things where I, we get something out of our bag and we'll try to bring it to life and do stuff around that. But, but no, it's something I'd like to focus on more, to be honest. So yes. I mean, I really think if you, if you could meet Georgia, she she will do. 'cause I, I mean the best series I've ever got is, um, these, they're called golden stories. Yes. Stories for gold. Stories for golden Rules. And they, they, I found this wonderful, um, uh, early years teacher and an early years ta who could, they're just, anyway, I dunno, they come across, but they're, they're, they're, they're based where we listen, we, we are kind, they're all of the values. And, um, they have little tiny finger puppets. So I wrote a book to go to, to show, it's a book on, um, a handbook on how to bring those big books alive, sort of using those little puppets and ideas. Um, and uh, it, it, that was helpful. I mean, I won't ever, I'm not not gonna go back to writing again in that way. It's, it's another, it's an era that's gone now. I haven't got the energy to do that anymore. But, um, it, it was very helpful to teachers to have ideas given to them about how to do it. And they would, so you could read the book and you'd waggle your little, your little tiny finger puppet that went with all the characters in the stories. So that was really nice. Um, so there is so much we can do and there's not enough that we're doing. But actually chil, I mean, it makes me smile because when I do, uh, say I had a head teacher, secondary head teacher's conference, just for the sheer naughtiness of it, I'll just say, well, in, you know, we do circle time in primary and we actually use puppets and you can see the, and then I get the puppets out and there's something so magnetic about a good puppet, the way it moves and the way it's a bit sad and the way it's, and they're all cra forward. The head teachers are all crazy And then suddenly they catch themselves and they go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it wouldn't work for kids. Did and I, the number of times I, that wouldn't work for, it wouldn't work with our kids. If it's working for you with your little suit on and your, your your, your great big bag of worries that you've got in your head, yes, it would work for all children and it would work for your secondary kids. But it takes, again, it, you need time and everything we're talking about today, Katie, is time Kate. And we haven't got, the people haven't got time to play and have workshops and enjoy Yes. Playing Available to them yet. We, we just, we, you know, we're all talking about mental health, but the only thing that would give anybody mental health is have time to play. That would give them all time some mental health. It's true. It's true. Um, the only thing I was gonna to ask you, um, and I know it's obviously something that will come up a lot in circle time stories, uh, circle time, um, but in our stories we get a lot of violent things that come through. Um, and I think it's something that children and teachers are quite uncomfortable with, um, in terms of how to manage that. And we've done quite a bit in terms of our training, and we've talked to lots of different people on webinars, but I'd just kind of love to know how you handle this and what your advice is to people when there's things that come up that they're uncomfortable with and they don't quite know how to handle. Often astro is, is the violence, but Yeah, like if you've come across that and how you handle that, and So can you just explain, so if the the child was bringing would bring the violence into the story, can you just explain that bit? What do you mean? So often it's things like, um, say the character is a crocodile, and then you'll say to them, oh, what can we do? How can we help him hit him, smack him, bite him, poke him in the eyes, like, you know what I mean? It's, there's a lot of violent stuff. Killing My goodness though. That's, that's punch. And Judy isn't it as well, with a crocodile, There's a lot of stories. Most of the traditional tales are pretty violent. If you look at them, burn them in a pot and yeah. So you have to head off with a wood cutters accent. So yeah, there's, in stories, It, it's really complex with this because actually the children love the shouting and the screaming. I watch them. I mean, I'm, you know, in Swage as one of the, I I'm often down there to, when I'm taking my grandchildren and, and they're always wanting, they're always wanting to go there and have them bonked and thrown and, and and down. And they're always quite nice afterwards. They, they're actually, it's like the violence has gone and they're always quite kind to each other. And I think good, I'll have a nice time with them now. They've seen that Time Gone for while because the sibling stuff is really bad. Kids are really Pushing. That's terrible, my brother. I know. Yeah. I'm, it's, it's quite deep now if we're trying to use puppets, um, I don't know, I don't know whether isn't sometimes just a good thing. It's done through the, it's done. I think it's a good thing through the, the, the metaphor. So they're enjoying the naughtiness of it. Mm-hmm. Alright. I don't know what the right thing is. If, if, if you, if you were using, um, I'm, I'm, I'm a, a drama therapist as well. And when I have, I obviously don't do it anymore because I can't, 'cause it's a long time ago, but I did what I was and I was registered by that, um, you would allow them that, does that make sense? Because it was in a therapeutic environment and you had the facilities to do that, and you would allow them to explore it in that way. We can't do that in schools because there's a worry that's going to spill over to the playground or that's gonna go back to a parent or whatever. So in fact, there may be some fantastic research saying children need an outlet mm-hmm. Of, of mm-hmm. Saying the worst things they can say and shouting and blah. They, there may be some, some all sorts of psychological research on that, I don't know. But I do know that teachers are uncomfortable because they've got 30 children and they're trying to work with Yeah. So in mine, we do the, in my puppet scripts, books that we have that the, um, uh, the puppet will say something that's been happened to him, like he's been hit or he's been left out on, people are shouting at me, I dunno what to do about it. So we do say we, we get 'em to think from the other person's point of view. What would that feel like to have that ax on his head? You know, how would he feel? So the only thing that you can actually counteract that is empathy. The only thing that'll change the world in any way is empathy. So, um, there may be a space that we can allow children to play and say those things, but at the same time, you would have to be really building up their ability to have empathy. And you can, the best way of getting empathy is actually puppets. Because when they say, I, I bet you can't guess what name I was called my papa, but you can't get what I was called. Yeah, yeah. You were called, you were called Pig and Four Eyes and all the things that they're called. So they can actually say those things that they've been called, called I, yeah. And I dunno what to do about it. So you get the children to say, coach the puppets, how to stand up for themselves, coach the puppets to go and tell the teacher, coach the puppets to do the right thing. But that's a very moral way of helping, and that's building empathy. Um, but maybe, and, and if you watch children play outside, it's rough play they want to do, and we have to channel that rough play so they're not actually thumping each other, but they might be working out some special, I don't know, we should get noodles. So they could TP each other with noodles at one stage. They'd have to use them as lances and try and get the drama of it going. It's a huge, I mean, it's a huge area, Kate and I, I I I'm absolutely a hundred percent pushing empathy. Yes. And, um, but sometimes when they're making up their own play with their own stories and there's some, uh, there's a place maybe to let that out because they've seen so much of it going on at home. Um, but then there'll be a place to look at later, how do we, if we are at the receiving end of that, how do we deal with that? So it's, it's complex, I think. Yeah. No, I think that's a really good answer, which kind of is give it space to happen and discuss it. Yeah. Bring in the empathy. So yeah, I think that's great. So, um, uh, is there anything that I've asked you about that you would like to chat about or you would like to tell people about? Um, hang on in there. Hang on in there. Everyone, there's so many unsung heroes. Mm-hmm. I just watch and I, I listen to my grandchildren and they tell me about how that, how that, uh, ta taught them how to do hand exercises so that they could hold their things better and how that person taught them that. And you can see that these are gentle, you know, that the children are having mm-hmm. So many children are having such rich interactions with teachers who are tired with TAs who are tired, um, but are doing the very best that they can. And they're unsung heroes because the next thing they have to jump through an osted hoop or they have to jump through this, or they have to jump through that. Um, I think there should be, you know, what I love is that my, my philosophy of life is that if life is being, um, kind to you in any way, give back, give back what you can. But if life is being unkind to you, receive back, allow people to do things for you and, and accept it. So in my happy world, there would be a staff social committee who are volunteers just for half a term, who come up with all sorts of fun things that the adults can do. So they, they have, you know, DAF things like, I don't know, mystery friends or dignity days that just get through with dignity. All sorts of things that they can do to, to boost themselves. Because in the end, it's got to be how you get on with everybody. That, that circle of people standing around you is all that stands between you and complete madness. So if, if people are moaning too much and if people are talking behind each other's backs, um, it makes it a very difficult environment to work with. If you, if you actually pitch in and say, this is, I'm, you know, yes, people are annoying me, yes, this happens, but actually it's the children we're trying to reach and everybody has a light to them. It just may not, you may not be drawn to that light. And I, I remember a very beautiful head teacher I worked with a long time ago, and, um, she had a big school for children with, um, severe special needs. So she had a lot of adults. Um, and she said, every adult in my school has a different light that comes from them. She said, some of them have got the light of generosity, some of them have got the light of stickability, some of them got the light of kindness, some have got the light of, um, being reliable, but they, some of them are funny. She said, different light said, and together they make a rainbow of light through which my children can experience the world. So she was so sweet. She put up these, she got the kids to paint them with their elbows, these great big drippy rainbows everywhere, saying, welcome to my happy school. And that was all her staff there. And then, because life is tragic, um, it happens. She was killed in a car crash and she was only in her mid thirties. Um, and so there was a, there was a big assembly on this, and it was really hard sticky assembly and it wasn't going at all well, very difficult to explain to children when learning dis she's not coming back. Sure. Um, and then, um, uh, suddenly this lad shouted out. So right. So right. And he pointed up to the rainbow at the back of the stage and he said, she's up there. Aw. And that's spiritually profound. It is your light that will go on beyond you. You can't have all other members of staff having the same lights. You've got to, the idea of a school is not to tolerate individual differences, to respect individual differences. So everyone's light is different. You need, and when you are run down, you can't even see a light in somebody else. So sometimes we have to thank each other. Sometimes we have to thank each other for that light. I like to go into a staff room where we have a board up called Above and Beyond, and anyone puts a little post-it saying, thank you having that tea. Thank you for doing that, just to celebrate the light of that person. So it's, it's a big thing. But I think, you know, these are basically very good people, but we are, they're leaving in droves. We can't recruit them. Um, it's, it's getting harder and harder out there. Um, and until we get back some basic common sense, um, we're in trouble. Yes. Yeah, no, I think that's great advice. 'cause I think for a lot of teachers that I know often the dynamic with the other staff is one of the hardest things at their job. Mm. Actually, I think if that could be taken away, it could be a real different game for a lot of people. Yes. I think if everyone worked on it, I mean, it's going to be wherever you go, everyone thinks it's life's gonna be better somewhere else. It's not just people. And people are complex and we, you need systems within which, so people, you know, at least in a school, you could have a staff com staff, social committee, you could do it. Whereas, you know, shops, there's no time. They're in and out on shifts and still annoying each other. So there is possibility within schools, and I know lots of really good schools and my, I, in my happy world, I would love to, there are schools, I, I have a particular lovely school called Water Cliff Meadow. Mm-hmm. Primary in Sheffield. Now anyone can go on their home to their home thing and they'll see a little video, um, of um, what they do in that school to make it golden. It's a golden school. So they'll, they'll do that. But I love it when I can send broken people, tired people to a good school, which is in, you know, Sheffield was in the, the highest top area of deprivation at one stage. And it still is huge things. But if they go and they can see, hey, this is the kids, you know, 600 kids here all getting on, and the staff all love each other. Everyone's talking respectfully. Parents are treated hugely bad. If they can do it, anyone can do it. But it's not piecemeal people doing little bits of things. It's the whole, it's the whole ecosystem model. So I would say to people, go and look at this. Go and look at what they're doing. Um, think about the whole, but it's taken years and it's taken years of, of, um, three words would change a school, it, and they are plan. Mm-hmm. And review if those three words for every bit of thing, every new thing you were taking in. And the minute you review it and it says, yes, we're doing it, put it on an achievement board, celebrate it, and keep looking at that achievement board because we take our eyes off it, it's gone. Aw away. Gone away again. And you've gotta keep looking after it and say, yeah, we're doing it. We're doing it. Yeah. I say, look, you know, I can come in and go woo and leave you high. And then I go out, um, and you are, you are there. So without these systems put into place to maintain some sort of equilibrium and vibrancy and personal care plans, it's very hard. You, you need that. So in the way you earn the right to get extra ideas in if the, uh, what you are running is a good ship. So get the good chip, get, get yourselves right first and then, then you've got energy to take on your ideas, my ideas, other people's ideas. But, um, you do need that kindness to each other. It's just kindness. Yeah. It'll always be just kindness. I think. I loved it. When was it? Was it, um, uh, not who's God Dai Lama. Um, and um, when he was just asked, you know, what is your religion? And he said, kindness. And it was just like, wow. Yeah. That's it. Kindness. And it's kindness yourself. That's really important because don't, you know, you, you've got other people's voices in your head. Your mom's voice will teacher's voice just be, just say, I'm doing the best I can. I'm gonna be kind. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's good. I was gonna say, um, what's the final thought that you'd like to leave people in? But that's probably quite a good one, Jenny. That is the thought. Yeah. I think that that is the thought. Just be kind to yourself. Yeah. That's, that's been brilliant, Jenny. That's been just wonderful. I think that's the message to get to people. 'cause people are so stressed and so overworked and I think it's just taking a breath and saying like, what, come on. What, what's going on here? Yeah.